by OlderTom 8 Replies latest jw friends
Did God create man or did man create god?
The book of myths says that god created man in his image yet men come in such a variety of colours and intelects.
How can they all be in His image. Please don't give me the Witchtower recorded message to counter this argument I have heard it too many times before. I would like to hear YOUR reasons not some regurgitated Witchtower garbage.
Where is the proof that God excists?
And you will know the truth and the REAL truth will set you free.
OlderTom
You're going about this all wrong. You see, you're being the agressor in this argument asking the question "Where is the proof God exists?"
However, through proposing the argument that there is no God, you are obliged to support your statement with more than a simple "there's variety therefore no God", as this could be explained away quite easily through some minor thinking such as "Oh, God invented a variety gene that allowed man to adapt a little to his current surroundings, whilst remaining within the species barrier" or something similar.
You seem to be suggesting, though, that simply by asking forcefully whether or not there is proof of a God, that you have defeated the existance of one, when in fact a common feature of most rational debate is the premise "lack of proof for does not constitute proof against".
Just to throw in my personal view, though, I'm an atheist. I like to see arguments proposed correctly, though.
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The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126 "As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible "
Ok let me tell you why I think there is no god. I want to believe in the almighty creator but there is too much evidence of him not excisting.
If a father, who has the power to do anything he wants, stands by and does nothing while his children are raped, murdered, starved, hacked to death by machetty, driven out of their homes and country, killed my germs and viruses etc. etc. what kind of father do you think he is and how would decent people react to him?
Our so called heavenly father has been doing that for thousands of years Is that because he loves us? Now don't give me the stock standard Witchtower reply, I know it.
We sinned right blah blah blah
In the animal kingdom there is a constant struggle for survival, eat or be eaten. Grow up, reproduce and die. In the human world the same struggle excists but it is somewhat refind and more subtle but we still struggle daily just to excist. Just stop paying your bills and see how long you'll have food and shelter.
Whose idea of paradise is that? A sadistic monster not an all loving creater. Did the animals sin also? What was their sin?
And you will know the truth and the REAL truth will set you free.
OlderTom
For one Christian's answer, Older Tom, read the 2nd half of this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17590&site=3
You might want to add to the comments.
AlanF
I knew about this already.
Many stories in the book of myths are based on actual histerical hapenings.
I have now doubt there was a Noah an Abraham and a Jesus but did they really do what the book of myths says they did? We tend to exaturate stories and so did they. They were peasants and belived anything you told them without question much like the JWs today. Where is the proof?
Why can't they find noahs ark? It never excisted. If it was build today according to the instructions in the bible, with todays technology (steel, waterproofing chemicals sealants etc.)it would still not have been able to do the job. It would have tipped over on the first big wave. Noah in his days with hand tools wooden nails, no glue, no steel, no welding. It would have broken up before it started to float.
Want proof? Put a shoebox into the bathtub it'll float. Now put some apples in it. Try the family cat.
Yes there was a flood but it was local not global.
Was god so stupid that he did not realise that the tower of babylon would fall over long before it would reach his heaven. There was no need to confuse their language.
Different languages came about simply because people moved throughout the earth. Compare the language of some American Rappers with the Queens english. Language is a dynamic living thing. "evolving" still today.
Did Noah collect some kangaroos and Koalas for his ark and how did he put them back afterwards?
They are unique to Australia due to Isolation after the land bridge between Asia and Australia closed.
Think people think.
The hebrews went around killing and raping and murdering in the name of Jahveh then wrote a book years later to justify their actions. saying God said go do this and that. Come to think about it they are still doing it today.
Billions of people have been murdered in the name of god and he is still sitting on his hands waiting. Waiting for what?
For every one witness he waits to safe he has to destroy a thousand non witnesses. Surely Jahveh know this is lousy reasoning.
The idea of a single almighty god was not the Hebrews, they stole it from the Egyptians. Yes there is written proof. What proof is there in who wrote the book of myths and did they tell the truth.
Someone here posted " The mind is like a parashute, it has to be open to work properly" I agree whole heatedly.
And you will know the truth and the REAL truth will set you free.
OlderTom
The problem of evil is a large one, in fact it is the problem that keeps me from believing in a God as defined by Christianity.
Interestingly, if you take away any one of the terms "omniscient", "omnipotent" or "benevolent", you find the problems melt right away...
However, don't be so quick to dismiss the Christian defence based around the necessity of Evil. It's been a powerful enough argument to keep Philosophers pondering for many hundreds of years.
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The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126 "As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible "
When God was alone, before He created His Name/Word, was He 'God'? Doesn't God need a creation that knows Him for who He is in order to be 'God'? I don't think that man created God, but God wouldn't be 'God' without His creation, would He?
Siegswife,
You wrote: When God was alone, before He created His Name/Word, was He 'God'? ... God wouldn't be 'God' without His creation, would He?
Einstein proved that time is only a dimension of our physical universe. And that time did not begin until our physical universe began. Thus, if Christ (the Word) existed "with God" at "the beginning" (John1:1) of our physical universe, it cannot be accurately stated that he was begotten by God "before" our physical universe began. Why? Because the word "before" indicates a point in time. And time did not begin until our physical universe began. So, Christ must have been begotten totally outside of the dimension of time.
With these things in mind, I believe it is safe to say that there was never a time when God was not "God."
What good is a King without his kingdom?
Is a King still a king without his subjects?
Is a God still a god without his subjects.
At work, if everyone ignores the supervisor and does what they want, is the supervisor still the supervisor?
Does god need subjects in order to be a god? Why?
We need a god so we created one because many of us do not want to stand on our own feet we want to be lead rather than lead, it's easier to just follow the flow and be lead. I prefere to take my life into my own hand and do what is best for me.
We only get one go at life and this is it. Don't blow it. There is no life after death only death. What would you do in heaven to not get bored for eternity. Think about it.
We created the whole myth about going to heaven and living for ever because we don't want to accept death and the churches use our fear of death to exploit us and to control us. Don't believe me? as Osamer Bin Laden
And you will know the truth and the REAL truth will set you free.
OlderTom
