Revelation...real or the product of a drunk senile old man?

by highdose 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  highdose

  Heres somthing thats always bugged me. The WTBS read sooooo much into revelation, this symbol means this and this symbol means that etc. They actauly have no proof and no back up for this. As for predicting that the world would become worse place in the future... well i'm not sure, i think in this day and age we are just far more aware of what goes on in the world due to the internet etc...

  But the monsters coming out of the sea, the visions of heaven , is this really real, or was john having a senile alcohol infused nightmare?

  I mean if god wanted to tell us what was happening in the future, why didn't he just spell it out for us? why cloud it up in werid symbols and dreams etc? Why not actauly state in the bible that the dead would be raised, 14400 go to heaven and the rest live on paradise earth? lets face it, god seems very good at spelling out time and again what will happen to the Jews if they don't repent, but the hope for all mankind in future, limited to only a light smattering of scriptures losely strung together by the WBST???

  Quite frankly i could take Moby Dick, pride and predjuice etc and decide to use the same wishfull thinking method that the WBST use, and i'd probably come up with full filled profecys etc... BTW when the end of the world comes ... we are all going to end up living at pemberly in Derbyshire! Pemberly being representive of gods heaven Mr Darcy represents god, being the at first misunderstood deity who we come to know better and eventually love. Lady Catherine is Satun who tries to stop us from finding Mr Darcy aka God, but fails. Mr darcys sister who lives at pemberly represents gods angels. And the interaction between the bennet family represents the congregation of god, and how although inperfect we must all love eachother and work together in order to get to Pemberly...

  The GB are a modern day greater Georgiana Darcy and the elders the greater Mr bennet. Notice how the profecy of the warped Mr Collins trying to steal away Elizabeth was fullfilled in our day by the advent of the internet bring apostacy to the world. Indeed some have fallen away due to the Mr Collins influence, just like Charlotte lucas! How can we learn from the sad example of Miss Lucas? Well as clearly seen in the bible/pride and predujice she failed to spead enough time at Longbourne in the upbuilding company of the Bennet family, thereby leaving her vunerble to attacks by the Mr Collins class.

  See what i mean???!!!!
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  Black Sheep

  I have had similar visions with psilocybin mushrooms similar to the ones that grow on Patmos.

  Even on this forum there are people who read more into mushroom inspired experiences than they warrant. Hallucinations are just a result of a chemical disturbance in the brain and have nothing to do with god or privileged insights.

  They are a helluva lot of fun.

  Cheers

  Chris
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  nelly136

  probably drugs or some sort of psychosis, these days it would probably get them a trip to a psych ward. i've met a few sons of god over the years amongst other things.
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  alanv

  To me the very first verse in Revelation is a joke. It says to show his slaves WHAT MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE. JWs will say that 1000 years are but a day to God but come on this was given to a mortal man who was soon to die. If this was said to you would you think that's great, it will start to take place in the next 2000 years or so. I think not. The borg have put their own spin on it just like others have done in the past. Some of it is just credible but most of it is the product of an senile old man.
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  Leolaia

  While the content of Revelation may seem "hallucinationary" to many modern readers, the book conforms quite well to the literary apocalypse genre and there really is not all that much that isn't inspired by other apocalypses circulating at the time or isn't drawn from material in the OT (indeed, Revelation is the most allusive book of the NT of the OT). It may seem very odd in the NT canon, but if you read it alongside other Jewish apocalypses written at about the same time (such as the fourth Sibylline Oracle and 4 Ezra), it fits in very well with the kind of symbols, imagery, and themes found therein (4 Ezra btw is still considered scripture in the Anglican and Russian Orthodoc Church, and it can be found in some translations such as the New English Bible under the title "2 Esdras"). It is the book of someone who has read the OT and other apocalypses (such as 1 Enoch and the Oracles of Hystaspes) very thoroughly and was so immersed in them that he drew quite freely from them in composing his own work.

  It also isn't the ravings of a madman but has a clear pragmatic objective. The book is a piece of political anti-Roman propaganda like the Oracles of Hystaspes (which was popular among Christians and which was banned by the Roman government) that aims to embolden a Christian community in crisis to resist the imperial cult even under the pain of death. The imperial cult was very popular in Asia Minor (where temples to the goddess Roma, depicted as sitting on the seven hills of Rome in a manner identical to the harlot of ch. 17, were established in many of the cities to which the book was addressed) and many Christians participated in this "idolatry" which John of Patmos condemned as disloyalty to Jesus Christ. He warned them that participation in this cult would become compulsory (as it did soon afterward under Trajan and Pliny the Younger) and that the "great tribulation" foretold in the OT would occur when all Christians must choose between worshipping the Emperor or worshipping Jesus and God. He also gave them hope that this persecution would last only a short period of time, and that destruction to Rome and its Emperor (the "Beast") has already been foreordained, and that in reality the Christians who resist the persecution will become the true rulers of the world. The effect of this message would be powerful in the second and third centuries AD and gave many Christians the strength to face the lions, the cross, the burning stake, and whatever device the authorities used to make the Christians denounce their faith. In this way, the function of the book is very similar to the early apocalypse of Hebrew Daniel, which similarly was aimed at encouraging Jews to maintain their traditions in the face of horrific persecution under Antiochus Epiphanes (cf. the first chapter of 1 Maccabees).

  Of course in the centuries and millennia since, both books became the happy hunting ground of any sort of future eschatological speculation (as practiced so expertly by the Society), as the specific "prophecies" of each book never came to pass in the manner their authors originally conceived.
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  PSacramento

  Well said Leo,

  May I ask where you got the info that the prophecy was in regards to current and future Roman emperors and such?
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  zarco

  Outstanding, Leolaia. Thanks for the clarity regarding the purpose of the writing.
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  Leolaia

  PSacramento....There are a ton of books on the subject, but see especially the critical commentaries on Revelation. Aune's three-volume commentary is most thorough on the subject. You could also read the books of 4 Ezra and the fourth Sibylline Oracle, written at about the same time as Revelation, which are quite explicit about things too.

  Here is a rather detailed article on the imperial cult:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_(ancient_Rome)
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  PSacramento

  Leo,

  Anything LESS bulky for Revelations than David Aune's work ?

  Yikes !