'But i hear all sorts of different views in the ministry'

by bohm 9 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  bohm

  I have heard this a couple of times:

  evil apostate: If, for example, a friend of you who wanted to be a mormon said: 'I have studied mormon throughoutly: its history, what it says, what the critics say, and i am sure mr. Smith was under divine influence and this is the truth', but what if he had only studied mr. Smith from mormon litterature - ie. what mr. Smith himself said about himself, his opposers, etc.. Would you really think he had done a throughout examination?

  JW: Well, look: I go door to door every week. I hear all sorts of arguments from all kind of religion. If any of them could show something jw believed in was not in the bible, I think i would have heard it by now.

  What is a good counter-argument to keep the conversation on the counter-mind-control track?
• 

  Chalam

  I hear all sorts of arguments from all kind of religion. If any of them could show something jw believed in was not in the bible, I think i would have heard it by now.

  They are told not to read or listen to "apostate" material. That said, they must have heard the gospel as they present their "other gospel" at the doorsteps of believers.

  1 Peter 2:8 (New International Version)

  8 and,
  "A stone that causes men to stumble
  and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

  JWs stumble over Jesus, the Rock and they disobey the simple message in the bible. Here's a classic example.

  John 3:3-8 (New International Version)

  3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

  4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

  5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

  Or this

  Romans 10:9 (New International Version)

  9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

  All the best, Stephen
• 

  Black Sheep

  Don't argue. Don't tell them stuff. Just ask questions that they don't like to answer or can't answer.

  If a JW made a statement like that to me I would have asked them to prove from the Bible that the FDS was selected by Jesus in 1919

  Forget the trinity/soul/whatever. Learn how to hack at their primary doctrine using questions.
• 

  designs

  The most obvious issue about the 1919 teaching- Those were Bible Students NOT JWs. Two completely different religions.
• 

  jabberwock

  JW: Well, look: I go door to door every week. I hear all sorts of arguments from all kind of religion. If any of them could show something jw believed in was not in the bible, I think i would have heard it by now.

  The Witness here is not saying that it is wrong to consider what critics and apostates have to say, but unnecessary since any legitimate criticisms would turn up in conversation while out in field service.

  Ask this person outright whether or not they personally would read material (apostate or otherwise) that was critical of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  I suspect that they would not. In that case ask them if this is how they make other decisions.

  If they went to the local Ford dealership would they trust a salesman that told them, "The new Mustang is great. Don't read the review in Consumer Reports though. It's all lies and half-truths. Just take my word for it and buy it now."?

  Or what would they think if they had a rare illness and their doctor said, "I have a new experimental procedure that can cure you. Other doctors think it's dangerous, but they're all quacks and liars. The entire medical establishment is corrupt. Whatever you do don't get a second opinion."

  I think in both of these situations and many others Witnesses would tend to think more critically and view claims of exclusivity with suspicion. They need to apply this same type of thinking to their religious beliefs as well.
• 

  bohm

  JABBERWOCK: As you can properly tell, i drill him on this question pretty much every time we meet. I actually asked him exactly what you wrote. The response? "Well, if someone want to do that, that is their descision. But personally, I dont feel i have a need to do that" (arms crossed, defensive body posture).

  BLACK SHEEP: Oh yes oh yes. My current position, that i also tell him pretty much every time we meet, is that i am very impressed by jehovahs witnesses and how they base what they teach on the bible. However, even for wrong doctrines (such as the trinity), it is possible to select quotes that make it look like the bible has support of it, so in order to really know something is bible based you got to go in depth. One of those doctrines that i think every christian MUST go in depth which, and which is paramount for my own faith, is that of the FDS.

  I personally think an argument about their teachings in 1919 is the STRONGEST against jw, but i doubt its the most effective. I have asked him a couple of times about what would falsify his belief in jehovahs witnesses, and he keep returning to 'well, that we teach something which is not in the bible'. For that reason, and because it smell the least 'apostate', i have chosen to focus on the 70 years and 607. More specifically, reading a couple of chapters of jeremiah and then look at questions like 'which countries did the prophecy apply to?' etc. I will only bring in history if/when he does.

  But for now, we have both age regressed to puplic school where we read out loud to each other from the yellow book. last time i learned that spirits are superstitious nonsence ignorant, delusional people believe in. Unless they are deamons, BECAUSE THEN THEY ARE REALLY DANGEROUS!!!!!!111111111
• 

  Amber Rose

  Probably not the best approach, but I would be tempted to say - Really, people TALK to you in the ministry? You have actual conversations about religion with people in your door-to-door work? How often does this sort of thing happen to you? After 6 years of pioneering, I can probably count on one hand the number of people with whom I have gotten past "Hi".
• 

  Satanus

  We used that line, too.

  Ask, 'well then, you wouldn't mind if we go over what the apostates say?' Wouldn't work, of course.

  S
• 

  Georgiegirl

  (laughing) - EXACTLY what Amber Rose said. Really? Exactly HOW many in-depth conversations have you had in the ministry where you actually listened without an agenda and had a real conversation where you heard other views? Um? Helloooo??? (sound of crickets chirping)
• 

  Georgiegirl

  But seriously...there is so much they teach that is not "in" the Bible. Let's see, if you take a few words from this verse, a few words from another verse in another book, extrapolate them together, click your heels twice, turn around counterclockwise, and divide by the square root of pi - well see, there you have it! It's IN THE BIBLE!