Hi EOM,
Thanks for your post.
Your question and argument are so weak they need no response. The question also should not be limited to JW's, as this is not a strictly JW teaching.
Of course JWs are not the only ones who are "following the bible". In fact they are a tiny minority. Most of us Christians believe JWs are clearly are not following the bible, even their own corrupt NWT version.
That said, this is a JW (or exJW) forum so my post is directed at those groups.
I'll just mention a few things the good book says in reference to this. You probably have your conclusions set in stone, but may do your own research if you see a conflict from what you believe.
I am not dogmatic. Just show me the error of my ways from the bible and I will consider my view. That is what I am doing here.
The only one who can be dogmatic in this universe is God Himself as He never gets it wrong, that's His nature. Anyhow, the fallibility of God or the bible is not the topic of this thread so I will move on.
First, if God and Jesus are the same creature, then that is 1 witness not two or three.
The Trinity states God is one being but three persons. For example, Jesus was not praying to Himself but the Father but is still God, just like the Father.
2nd, God knows and sees all, the judgement was for human judgements amoung humans, who don't see and know all.
OK this is a good point. However, if it is true I am not so sure. From what I have read in the bible, God does not contravene His own word or the principles He establishes. He gave the law to Moses and it comes form His character. God does not lie, He does not steal etc.
At the crux of this issue I think this comes down to if you believe Jesus to be God with us Matthew 1:23 or "a god" with us as the WT teach.
Here is a passage that touches on the validity of Jesus testimony and His Divine nature.
John 8:12-30 (New International Version)
The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13 The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
Clearly the Pharisees did not see Jesus' Divinity and were calling upon the Mosaic law i.e. Jesus needed 2 or 3 witnesses to His testimony.
14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.
Jesus ratifies this point (and maybe yours).
15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16 But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
That said, Jesus is saying that the Father is His witness.
17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
Yes, Jesus concurs.
19 Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
So we are back to the Trinity or at least, two thirds of it, Jesus and the Father are one.
20 He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
Would they wish to seize Jesus because He was claiming to be God or "a god"?
21 Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
22 This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"
23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
25 "Who are you?" they asked.
"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26 "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30 Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
In the new testament, it's said those who put faith in the ransom sacrifice and don't practice sin anymore, follow God's commandments, their sins are forgiven and they are not judged.
Incorrect. Those who believe is Jesus do sin but they are forgiven.
1 John 1:5-10 (New International Version)
Walking in the light
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Those who reject the sacrifice, who try to be 'owed' life, are the ones who get judged based on their works. (this is a very tricky logic which Paul tried to explain in his letters, and Peter later said contain things hard to understand which many are twisting to their destruction. Many take this meaning they should be as sinful as possible, fornicate, etc, because it proves their faith in the sacrifice. Yet Jesus, Paul, etc, all stated that those who 'practice' such things won't inherit the kingdom. Another point is it does say, "interhit" the kingdom. So does that mean those who will have high positions, rulers, or any who want to be on God's side.
OK, we are to give an account for our whole lives
Matthew 12:36 (New International Version)
36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 (New International Version)
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Hebrews 4:13 (New International Version)
13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
However, no-one will be justified by their works, only by faith in Jesus
Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 3:22-24 (New International Version)
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Galatians 2:16 (New International Version)
16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
The old testament says everyone would be judged, but also that a stumbling stone was being sent to Israel.
Agreed. In fact Jesus is the stumbling stone and the capstone for all those who do not believe in Him.
1 Peter 2:4-8 (New International Version)
The Living Stone and a Chosen People
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame." 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
"The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone," 8 and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
I brought up a few things mentioned in the bible, without any solid answer so that any reading will notice some of the reasons for the differences religions believe, and how you would probably do well to check for yourself and trust in God and his word to set your path straight.
Agreed. We should check the bible for ourselves and listen to the Holy Spirit before we listen to anyone.
John 14:26 (New International Version)
26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 15:26 (New International Version)
26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
1 John 2:27 (New International Version)
27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
Blessings,
Stephen
