Is this a contradiction or is it just the way i'm reading it?

by The Finger 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  The Finger

  In the book Insight on the Scriptures page 996 under the subheading popular views,

  "Obviously, then, although Revelation 14:3 says that the 144,000 have been "brought from the earth" the context depicts them as being, not on earth, but in heaven with the heavenly Lamb, Christ Jesus."

  This is to defeat the arguement that the 144,000 are "members of the Christian congregation while on earth whereas the "great crowd" are the resurrected Christians in heaven.

  In the book Revelation Its Grand Climax At Hand! page 201 paragraph 10,

  "How can the 144,000 sing "before" the elders, since the 24 elders are the 144,000 in their glorious heavenly positions? ... The remnant of the 144,000 still on earth are therefore singing the new song before, or in the sight of, their resurrected brothers in heaven."

  The Revelation Its Grand Climax At Hand! is talking of the same scripture Revelation 14:2,3.

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• 

  nugget

  It does appear to be a contradiction or continuity error. Quick write to the society and let them know I'm sure they will be grateful they may even publish it as a QFR.
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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Interesting catch. It does appear to be a contradiction. If I recall correctly, the Insight books and the Revelation book were released around the same time (1988/89). Of course, the bulk of the material in the Insight books is directly lifted from the old Aid book (1971), so perhaps it's some "old light" that wasn't corrected during the editing process.

  In general, though, I find Revelation 14:1-4 to be a fun topic of discussion with JWs. In short, the WTS teaches that the 144,000 mentioned in verse 1 is a literal number, but in verse 3, it's symbolic (it represents the remnant on earth during the "last days"). Most JWs don't know this. If you're feeling frisky, try the following:

  Me: So when the Bible mentions 144,000, that number is literal, correct?

  JW: Yes.

  Me: (turn to Rev. 14) So when verse 1 refers to 144,000 that is literal?

  JW: Yes.

  Me: and they're in heaven, right? (verse 1 says they're with the lamb on Mt. Zion)

  JW: Yes, they are.

  Me: Ok. How about verse 3, what is going on there?

  JW: The verse says they're singing a new song before the throne and the 24 elders.

  Me: Who are the 24 elders?

  JW: They represent the 144,000 serving as kings and priests.

  Me: So they're singing before themselves? How does that work?

  JW: umm, the Revelation book says that the remnant of the 144,000 is singing in front of the already-resurrected 144,000.

  Me: So, let me get this straight. In verse 1, the 144,000 is a literal number of resurrected people in heaven, but then in verse 3, the 144,000 means a much smaller number of people who are still on earth?

  JW: Yes, that's what the Revelation book says.

  Me: So, in other words, you believe that 144,000 in the Bible is a literal number sometimes but not always?

  JW: This is pretty deep, let me do some research and get back with you...
• 

  The Finger

  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Thank you, I tried to discuss this with some elders who visited me but they did not shed any light on it.
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  Brocephus

  That made my head hurt just thinking about how or if it is a contradiction... How about we just agree it's all crap and I take an advil.
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  ldrnomo

  I think what it means is most of the 144 thou. have already been bought paid for and are dead or I mean in heaven and the few remaining when the end comes will be on the earth. And at the rate the 144 thou is growing there might be a great crowd of them by the time the end comes.

  LD
• 

  sir82

  I have drawn the conclusion that (A) JW beliefs are confusing and in a constant state of flux, and (B) the members of the writing committee are too lazy and/or incompetent to research what exactly the current beliefs are on a particular topic.

  Thus, it is hardly surprising that contradictions in the literature abound.
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  wobble

  The need for a contradiction arises because of their stupid assertion that the 144,000 and the 24 elders are one and the same, and they need to show how they can sing in front of eachother, if you see what I mean.

  Their silly explanation ignores the fact that Rev 14 plainly says all the 144,000 are in heaven.

  But the GB/writers obviously know better than Jesus what He was trying to say. "evidently"

  Brocephus is right, it is all crap.

  Wobble