The JW's are coming back this Saturday, asking for your opinions and help...

by esw1966 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  esw1966

  Hi, I had a great conversation with an elder and his wife. I am born again and the question I asked them was what Scripture they hold on to on the day of Armageddon when God looks at them and tries to determine whether or not he will let them into the paradise earth or not. He never heard that question and had no reply... He was going to do some research on it for me...

  Another scripture that I brought up that they didn't even think was in the Bible and asked me to prove it was Jesus saying that if we eat of his flesh and drink of his blood we have everlasting life and for those who do not eat or drink do not have eternal life. I said that they reject Christ because they do not partake. He said they did not. I said that if I made a meal for them and asked them to join me at the table and they wouldn't eat the meal I had prepared, I said that I would feel rejected.

  They are coming back this weekend to answer the question of eat/drinking Jesus blood and what the Society has to say it means. He felt that Jesus wasn't talking about the bread and the wine.

  I am asking what you would think is a good response to them with supporting scriptures would be nice and what do you think he will come back with. I'm just trying to get prepared and your opinions and thoughts would be helpful. Thanks!!!

  Ethan
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  Heartbreaker

  I think that he, and not his wife, but a younger male pioneer or ms (or both) will come back with a What Does the Bible Teach book. They'll think since you showed "interest" they have a bible study.

  They are not out to discuss or debate real bible topics, only to bring them up, explain how you should view them, and get you to be one of them. There will be no constructive enlightened conversation, nor will they listen to your points of reasonings and a light bulb moment will happen.

  You'd be better off at the Farmers Market looking for SilentOnes hotty.
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  yknot

  PMed you....
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  mindmelda

  If they think you're an interested person, they'll push to start a bible study with you out of one of the WTS publications. If you insist on sticking to the Bible alone and resisting their teachings, especially your own translation, they might persist a few more visits, but the whole point of return visits is to get bible studies and start feeding you the teachings of the WTS from specially selected scriptures used in their publications.

  I know, because this is what happened to me when I asked an elder's wife to come and "discuss the Bible" with me. When I kept deviating from the publications, the study with me was eventually dropped and I was told how uncooperative I was and that I really didn't want the truth.
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  happehanna

  It's only a fifty fifty chance they will return. They don't like hard questions, the spin they will put on it is that you are not sheep like.

  All the best if they do return and don't let them use anything other than the bible.
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  teel

  If you wish to reason with the JWs, your primary resource should be "Reasoning from the Scriptures" (thanks to yknot for the links she posted a couple of days ago in this thread - check there for other downloadable resources). JWs will refer to this book as primary resource when any question arises that they can't answer by themselves. Your JWs will surely discuss something along these lines.

  Here's what the Reasoning book says on John 6:53, 54 :

  Does John 6:58,54 indicate that only those who do partake will gain everlasting life?

  John 6:53, 54: "Jesus said to them: 'Most truly I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day!"

  This eating and drinking would obviously have to be done figuratively; otherwise the one doing it would be violating God's law. (Gen. 9:4; Acts 15:28,29) However, it should be noted that Jesus' statement at John 6:53, 54 was not made in connection with the inauguration of the Lord's Evening Meal. None who heard him had any idea of a celebration with bread and wine used to represent Christ's flesh and blood. That arrangement was not introduced until about a year later, and the apostle John's report about the Lord's Evening Meal does not begin until more than seven chapters later on (in John 14) in the Gospel bearing his name.

  How, then, can a person "eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood" in a figurative way if not by partaking of the bread and the wine at the Memorial? Notice that Jesus said that those thus eating and drinking would have "everlasting life!' Earlier, in verse 40, when explaining what people must do to have everlasting life, what did he say was the will of his Father? That "everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life." Reasonably, then, 'eating his flesh and drinking his blood' in a figurative sense is done by exercising faith in the redeeming power of Jesus' flesh and blood laid down in sacrifice. This exercising of faith is required of all who will gain the fullness of life, whether in the heavens with Christ or in the earthly Paradise.
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  Heaven

  They are coming back this weekend to answer the question of eat/drinking Jesus blood and what the Society has to say it means.

  OK, I'll save you the hassle of waiting around for them and having to talk to them.

  They will tell you that only their special 'annointed' (the "144,000" as gleaned from Revelations) are allowed to partake as they will be the only ones in Heaven with Christ while the rest will be resurrected/or survive into Paradise Earth. If you don't become a JW you will die at Armageddon or you won't be resurrected if you die before it arrives. It doesn't matter what scriptures they use or don't use. It's secondary to their literature. The entire Bible is secondary to their literature.

  There. You can now go out and enjoy your weekend. OR... stay home and ignore the knock on the door... that is IF they knock.

  Let us know if they actually do come back. JWs usually like recruiting people who have very little or no knowledge of the Bible and are at a low point in their lives. You probably aren't a good candidate for them.
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  ablebodiedman

  Ethan,

  I think you should feel comfortable with Hebrew Chapter 10 where it discusses the Holy Covenant.

  This is the thing that Jesus Christ shed his blood for.

  The reason he came to the earth to die.

  It is through this means that anyone and everyone might benefit through his shed blood.

  Then I would work in the scripture in Daniel Ch 11 about how this same Holy Covenant would be undermined.

  The Christian temple would be profaned by a disgusting thing.

  You should then work towards discussing the JW baptismal vows and compare them to Jesus Christ's commandment.

  Make absolutely certain their are no other names in the vows.

  When you see that "God's Spirit Directed Organization" is in the vows ask them what that is and if it means you are now making a vow to men.

  If they deny that you are making vows to men show them this quote from page 109 of the Jehovah's Witness Proclaimers of God's Kingdom Book about how God's Spirit directed organization is organized.

  jvchap.9p.109Jehovah’sWordKeepsMovingSpeedily(1976-1992)

  the Governing Body observed: "It has proved beneficial to have a number of brothers taking counsel together to consider the interests of the Kingdom work

  Now explain to them how you feel uncomfortable about the Holy Covenant being undermined.

  As a clincher you could show them this quote from a 1955 Watchtower Magazine:

  w557/1p.411ChristianBaptismfortheNewWorldSociety

  A Christian, therefore, cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit.

  Ask them why they get baptized in the name of an organization when they at one time thought this was a reprehensible thing to do.

  Help them understand that the holy covenant has been undermined.

  In Christ

  abe
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  esw1966

  Thank you all for your responses! Yes, it will be interesting to see who does come back, if they come back at all... : )

  My basis for conversation is that we have a sin problem before God that needs to be reconciled and if we can't agree on how that occurs, there really isn't much else to discuss. They need to accept that we have a sin problem and that it needs to be rectified, but as I see it, they have no answer for how that can be reconciled as Christ's blood only covers those with the heavenly calling and the great crowd has to learn from new scrolls that will be opened and then work really hard at becoming perfect knowing that even after the 1000 year reign they will have to keep performing to gain God's love or they will be destroyed even after Satan was let loose meaning they will always work and fear God's disaproval and that their salvation was based on themselves and not God which is very easy to disprove with Scripture.

  So, I aim to just stay on that topic as I feel it is the one they can't escape. It doesn't seem like they get hit with that too often either as he had said he was never asked that question before and didn't have an answer... Very odd to me.

  Thanks again for all your help! It has meant a lot to me to be able to stand up against a teaching that I was under for 30 years and now have been born again for 4 years. I have wanted to put my faith up against there's to see it's strength. So far, it has felt great to stand in opposition to them with just the scriptures and to watch them squirm and to give back paltry irrelevant retorts and then to storm out....
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  peaches

  good luck,,,,,no words of wisdom,,,but hope the best