" ...a time and times and half a time..."

by Yan Bibiyan 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Yan Bibiyan

  Nudged by mentallyfree31's thread on 607/587 (original thread here) , I have wondered lately if another angle can be used in deconstructing the 1914 cornerstone year.

  The 607 year is only important because it gives a starting point to the 2,520 years calculated from Neb's dream. The "calculation" hinges, among other houses of cards, on the 3 1/2 component, derived from the Dan 7:25 and Rev 14:14 " ...a time and times and half a time..." Now, this adds up to 3 1/2 ONLY if "times" means "2 times". If it means ANYTHING else than 2 times, the calc is off. Mathematically, "times" can mean anything between 2 - ∞.

  My question is, is there ANY reference in the bible quantifying that "times" means "2 times"? If not, coud that be a rather easy refutation to the 2,520 years calc? Could a practical example get through the defence systems of a JW - like a conversation where using "times" proves to be grossly insuficcient to determine how many (important) times something occured?

  Have any of you tried this angle?

  -Yan
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  OnTheWayOut

  JW's are not the first or only ones to use the "3-and-a-half-times" calculation combining Daniel, Revelation, and Numbers 14:34 with Ezek. 4:6 (both indicating a day for a year).
  Here's an example: http://biblelight.net/times.htm

  You can see that they are loaded with ammunition to support the 1260 years (a day for a year) with Rev. 12:6 using the literal number of days and Rev. 12:14 referring to the "time and times and half a time." They can easily appear to be the same thing. The math will lead them to this being half of "seven times." (Rev. 11:2 is also thrown in with "42 months" easily seeming to be the exact same thing.)

  My point is that is all a JW needs. Such a complicated mathematical calculation is made simple. The rest is dressing they will use to support their doctrine whether it is easy to understand or not. Even a staunch witness who tries to make sense of this will see it "their" way and then most other JW's won't bother to try to understand it.

  In my opinion, forget the math lesson and if you have a live thinker, use the 607 date as the weak link.
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  Olin Moyles Ghost

  I had the same question as a child. Why does "times" necessarily equal two times? Couldn't it be three, four, seven, forty-two, etc? Of course, the answer was that's what the FDS says it means, and that was good enough for me.

  My favorite line of attack against 1914 (and there are so many, aren't there?) is the whole idea of a second fulfillment. In short, there is nothing in the Bible that ties the prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's seven years of insanity to a second fulfillment over 2000 years later.
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  PSacramento

  Whenever there is a "code" for a time frame in the bible, that code is always mentioned, be it a day for a year or a month for a day o a day = a thousand years, it is always mentioned.

  That is NOT the case here.
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  WTWizard

  I never could figure that one out. They claim "times" always means two times. However, "times" simply means "more than one", and that could be any integer greater than one. All they need is be off by one time, and that introduces an error of hundreds of years in their chronology. And the end wouldn't be until well after the year 2500--meaning we have no rush to go around and complete our field misery so it will have to be repeated for the next 500 years or more.

  No problem: They can always string generations like Christmas lights. I think, at 120 years reach per generation, if they string 5 or 6 generations, they ought to be able to reach an extra time--and, if they are off by another "time", another 5 or 6 generations strung up should take care of that problem too.
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  TD

  Like OTWO said, JW's believe "times" must equal "two times" because 1260/360 = 3.5 (Revelation 12:6 & 14)

  Of course, interpreting an expression in Daniel based upon a similar expression in Revelation incorporates the JW notion of the Bible as a single contiguous book from cover to cover rather than a more loosely organized anthology as an a priori assumption.

  It also postulates the existence of a "Prophetic year" or "Biblical year" of 360 days which does not correspond to either a solar or lunar year.

  These are just two of many interpretational elements invented and used by the wackier side of 18th and 19th century Protestantism.
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  Hadit

  Excellent points!

  Jesus said that “nobody knows the day or the hour – only the Father” he also said that he would come as a “thief in the night.” I guess Jesus was joking and/or lying and he really put cryptic codes in the bible for us (the F&DS – governing body) to calculate something we are not supposed to know; something that is supposed to come upon the world suddenly. This should deconstruct all the calculations of 1914 and all the mess surrounding the generation debate.

  The WT touts itself as following scripture but they have a really hard time actually doing it. All this time they waste (and make us waste) on dates and times and rules when they could be doing something constructive, like giving away ALL their money just like Jesus told the rich man to do in order to get into the kingdom. Jesus said you received free – GIVE FREE. Sell the properties and take care of the needy. That’s what the early Christians did and that’s what Jesus taught – Love.

  Then again the WT is NOT about truth, God, Jesus or the Bible – it’s about Power and control.

  That’s why I have,

  Hadit
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  mindmelda

  I used to feel sort of badly that I could never do all that pseudo mathematical hopscotch to get to 1914, but then I realized there was a reason for that. Because its crap.

  Witnesses are fed so much crap that they basically just keep thinking crap is food instead of crap, but the "math" you do to get to it is crap math, crap thinking and crap logic.

  Still 607 is the weakest link...I'd always use that first. There's just NOTHING that supports it historically anywhere. It's a number they pulled out of their collective ass to get to a date that works well for the WTS's own history, that date actually being 1919, when they all got unjustly persecuted by the evil system of things, which proves they're the real Christians.

  Because no other Christian groups have suffered NEARLY as much as they have.