by ThomasCovenant 6 Replies latest watchtower bible
Having only been a Witness for about 30 years I'm not really sure about the answer. I would say 'yes' but does anyone know further.
I'm aware of the 'mediator only for the 144,00', but am I correct in saying the WTS agrees, and by default all Witnesses agree, that Jesus died for their sins?
No they pay lip service to "vicarious punishment". In fact they believe Jesus died for Adam's sins giving humans the opportunity to earn their own salvation
Oh come on – can’t you stick it out another 30 to get the answer? Funny – I was in the same boat – 30 years and I didn’t really know the answer either! I have done some research on it and I get so angry because their answer is so convoluted and so elitist it drives me crazy. In a nutshell here is how I understand what they say:
Jesus perfect sinless life and shed blood balanced the scales of Adam’s sin. Because of this we can have the hope of being brought to perfection like God’s original purpose for man. But his shed blood comes in two parts – one for the anointed and one for the great crowd. They say because he is both the Greater Moses (mediator) and the Greater Aaron (High Priest) that the anointed get both parts but as the great crowd we only get the High Priest aspect of his ransom. Then they get into the sacrificial goats and a bunch of other mumbo jumbo that is so stupid and ridiculous I won’t go into it here. In other words:
Jesus is the mediator ONLY for the 144,000. His shed blood applies to these ones NOW – they are righteous in God’s eyes, they are his sons and will have immortality bestowed upon them at death. Basically their hope is guaranteed (unless they fall away before they die). They get to judge us during the 1,000 year reign.
The Great crowd – Can pray through Jesus name and receive forgiveness on a daily basis but . . . Jesus full ransom value is not applied to them until after they:
Survive Armageddon
Make it through the 1,000 years without being executed (if you disobey)
Make it through the one last test after Satan is released
If you manage to make it through that you are brought to perfection and can be a son of God . . . but if you sin – you will be executed immediately.
So as pointed out by cofty – we have to EARN our salvation by works, works, works. That is why they push everyone so hard. One little mistake and you are out of the kingdom.
So long story short – their ridiculous answer really means that NO Jesus did not die for our sins. He died for ONLY the 144,000.
Rank and file are left in the dark as to what they are really saying and just trust their BS that we can approach God through Jesus and be forgiven and then live forever in a paradise on earth. However, without a mediator they don’t have salvation at all.
In reality and without twisting and doing scriptural acrobatics – the bible plainly states he is the mediator between God and man. He died and bore our sins for us (big difference than just balancing Adam’s sin) and by his faith we are cleansed and forgiven. All he asks is that we believe it and he promises you life. No works by any human could ever accomplish that. It is a gift. You don’t work for a gift. It is free. It is by grace.
That is of course if you still believe in all this in the first place – I know a lot have lost any trust in anything the bible says. Not shocking considering what all this WT BS has put each and every one of us through.
After all that – did I answer even answer your question?
Damn, Hadit, you nailed it!
He died and bore our sins for us (big difference than just balancing Adam’s sin) and by his faith we are cleansed and forgiven. All he asks is that we believe it and he promises you life. No works by any human could ever accomplish that. It is a gift. You don’t work for a gift. It is free. It is by grace.
You have NO idea how much this topic still bugs me...I was born in, so I have always been taught that Jesus died for our sins BUT that we have to work to reap the rewards OF that sacrifice he made. I often wondered: if Jesus died for our sins, and we are to be grateful to he and to Jehovah for offering up his son, WHAT are we really being thankful for???? Cause according to JW ideas, I tecnically have to EARN that sacrifice. Confuses the hell outta me...
He died to vindicate Jehovah's name and gather 144K from the earth to enforce Jehovah's universal sovereignty whether humans want it or not. We're pretty much unimportant in that grand scheme of things. We can earn salvation by slaving for the Borg...or not.
It's gotta be by grace.
In a topic presented by Terry a few weeks ago there was a debate between a couple of theologians on the inerrancy or infallibility of the scriptures but a chief bit of information was the fact that there was no written body of doctrine during the first 15 years after Jesus' death. So there was no "What Does God Require" brochure. Just grateful sinners who may have done a lot of spontaneous talking.
If it were so complicated then the Roman jailer in Acts who had only part of one night to learn about Jesus' reconciling act wouldn't have made it. (He had to have time to get baptized too.... he and his whole household with him)
Nope, it had to be simple and grace is simple.
After that we have to be honest with God and ourselves.
