If Samuelsson Is Right about Crucifixion All Lexica Need Revision

by Titus 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Titus
    Titus

    If Samuelsson Is Right about Crucifixion All Lexica Need Revision

    Last Friday Gunnar Samuelsson successfylly defended his thesis "Crucifixion in Antiquity: An Inquiry into the Background of the New Testament Terminology of Crucifixion" at Gothenburg University (supervisor Samuel Byrskog).

    The external examiner Erkki Koskenniemi Professor of Åbo University, Finland, was drastic in his opening when he said that "if Gunnar Samuelsson is right, then all lexica will need revision on this point." "Koskenniemi also pointed out that "if Gunnar Samuelsson is wrong, he will from this moment be known as the Gunnar Samuelsson who wrote about the cross."

    http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2010/05/if-samuelsson-is-right-about.html

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    If I read that right, Gunner is basically saying that the NT is inconclusive and doesn't gives us enough info to say that jesus dies on a "cross", so we have to look elswhere.

    Well, Baranbas' Epistle DOES give us the shape ( Greek letter "tau"), the romans DID, typically, use a cross for nailing people, medical research gives us the clues to HOW long Jesus would have laste din both methods, Mant passages allude to the form of Jesus death ( raised up, arms out), archelogical evidence shows that the cross shape was used in reagrds to crucifixations.

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    The whole torture stake thing is a myth invented by ignorance. Look it up. The bible is not written in classical greek.

    dc

  • JWoods
    JWoods

    Good GAWD, Titus - what the hell difference does this cross stuff make to anybody, anyway?

    If you actually believe that christ died for mankind at the wishes of God, then what shape the cross was is non-essential. If it were essential, the new testament would have spelled it out.

    If you are a skeptic of the story as I am, then you simply don't care.

    If you are a witness, then you care because you want to put down approximately 1/3rd of the earth's conventional christian population because YOU ARE RIGHT and THEY ARE WRONG about the cross - even though you cannot seem to live down constant false prophecy.

    Stake versus Cross is theological nonsense.

  • aSphereisnotaCircle
    aSphereisnotaCircle

    If they have something as important as the shape of J's torture device wrong,

    then imagine what else they must have wrong.

    I just wouldn't trust any of it, if I were you.

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    According to the WTS - Stauros means an upright stake, or pale in Classical Greek.

    The problem with this is simply that Classical Greek hadn't been spoken for centuries before Jesus Christ was born unto Mary.

    In Koine Greek [the new testament is written in Koine Greek which is Hellenistic] stauros means an upright stake with a cross beam above it, or two intersecting beams of equal length, or a vertical, pointed stake.

    If Christ was killed on just an upright stake the writers of the new testament would probably have used the word Skolops.

    Further evidence against the torture stake idea can be found in John 20;25 when Jesus is discribed as having prints of the nails in his hands. There is no evidence at all that Christ was killed on a stake, but plenty of art depicting Jesus on a cross. Additional archaeological evidence to support the crucifixion has been unearthed in the city of Herculaneum where a whitish stuccoed panel shows the imprint of a large cross, probably metallic, that had been removed...Before it are the remains of a small wooden alter charred by the lava from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79A.D. It seems almost impossible that the details of his death could have been lost so soon after his death.

    respectfully,

    dc

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Titus....Why did you start a second thread on the same subject. Please see my comments here:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/195232/1/Jesus-did-not-die-on-the-cross-Gunnar-Samuelsson

    In Koine Greek [the new testament is written in Koine Greek which is Hellenistic] stauros means an upright stake with a cross beam above it, or two intersecting beams of equal length, or a vertical, pointed stake.

    As I mentioned in the other thread, the physical form of the execution apparatus is not part of the word's meaning (other than a wooden object standing upright). It is more accurate to describe the word's history in these terms: first in early classical Greek (i.e. prior to c. 450 BC), stauros referred to a standing wooden timber or stake, as used in buildings, fences, and palisades. Then in later classical Greek and in koine Greek, a technical sense developed: stauros now referred to a particular kind of execution involving suspension on a wooden apparatus, as well as the device used in this kind of execution. This sense should be distinguished from the first. If the word refers to an execution apparatus, the fact that stauros originally meant "stake" does not mean that the execution apparatus must be a simple "stake". The form could be whatever the executioner wanted it to be, and in the case of Roman crucifixion, a crossbeam was very often used.

    If Christ was killed on just an upright stake the writers of the new testament would probably have used the word Skolops.

    Skolops is the word that evokes the image of the vertical pointed stake (as it also means "thorn"), but stauros could refer to the crux simplex as well; this is probably the case in Greek references to Persian crucifixion which probably did not involve crossbeams (the patibulum was a Roman invention). Also it should not be forgotten that the verbal form of skolops was interchangeable with the verbal form of stauros (so, for instance, Lucian used the verbal form of skolops to refer to crucifixion on a two-beamed cross).

    Further evidence against the torture stake idea can be found in John 20;25 when Jesus is discribed as having prints of the nails in his hands.

    This would contradict with Watchtower depictions of crucifixion on a crux simplex, but there is no reason why both hands need to be pierced by a single nail. We simply don't know how the Romans crucified people in the absence of patibula, so the value of this reference is somewhat ambiguous.

    There is no evidence at all that Christ was killed on a stake, but plenty of art depicting Jesus on a cross. Additional archaeological evidence to support the crucifixion has been unearthed in the city of Herculaneum where a whitish stuccoed panel shows the imprint of a large cross, probably metallic, that had been removed...Before it are the remains of a small wooden alter charred by the lava from the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79A.D.

    This is debatable. This imprint is believed by some to have been left by a cabinet or shelf. Nor is there independent evidence that the residents of the apartment were Christian.

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    I'll just repost this from another thread

    More evidence of Jesus dying on the cross can be found from the church fathers.

    St. Irenaeus and St Justin Martyr {both considered as Christian leaders by WTS-Should you believe in the Trinity pg7}, both confirm that Jesus did not die on a torture stake.

    Irenaeus said 'The very form of the cross, too, has 5 extremities, 2 in length, 2 in breadth, and 1 in the middle, on which [last] the personrests who is fixed by the nails' Against Heresies 2:4:24

    Justin Martyr explains that Moses outstretched hands were actually a prefigurment of Christ on the cross and continues on cross construction 'For one beam is placed upright....and the other beam is fitted on to it' . Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 90, 91

    The evidence of a cross is there to see.

    respectfully,

    dc

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Are you all comparing Jesus as well to Horus of ancient Egypt? .......

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