Are We Truly Born "Good"?

by AGuest 8 Replies latest jw friends

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  AGuest

  May you all have peace!

  Some of you may remember a post from me some time back regarding the receiving 'writings' on my heart from the Spirit of my Lord. If not and/or you wish to review it, I think Simon has a 'function' that will take you there. Right now, though, I am compelled by the Spirit of my Father, by means of my Lord, to share with you something I received a couple of weeks ago.

  There is the consensus among many that humans are born good and as they grow and develop learn bad (for those that do). However, by the spirit of my Father, JAH OF ARMIES, that is in me, by means of my Lord, His Son and Christ, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, I must say that those who believe that have been misled. In TRUTH, it is just the opposite: we are, ALL of us... born with 'bad' IN us. It can be no other way, for we are born in the 'image' of Adam, of what he was AFTER he sinned, and not in the 'image' of God (who is GOOD), as was Adam. That is why it is sad that "the INCLINATION of man... FROM HIS YOUTH UP... is bad... all the time."

  What the 'thing' is, dear ones, is NOT that we are born good and progress as a species to bad, but are born BAD... and must LEARN GOOD! This was the case even with my Lord, when he was born in the flesh: he was NOT born good or DOING good, for his flesh did not automatically know good. He had to LEARN good, which he learned from my Father, and it was by LEARNING good, that he came to 'reject the bad'.

  Isaiah 7:14, 15

  I am compelled to share this with you, because many people do not understand why some people 'go bad', why some children are disobedient, etc. In TRUTH, dear ones, we are ALL born that way... bad. And it is for the very reason that we are to 'train up' our children in the way 'that they SHOULD go'. It is when we FAIL to train our children as to what is 'good', that they CONTINUE to be 'bad'.

  I know there are some, in fact many, who are going to take exception with this, as my Lord as already warned me. However, I give you infants and toddlers and ask you, which of these automatically KNOW good? Which of these automatically know how not to harm themselves... and others? Do we not HAVE to teach them these things? And do we not HAVE to teach them kindness and consideration and manners, etc.? Will a child left to itself... or raised by, say, barbarians, AUTOMATICALLY know what is 'wrong' versus what is 'right'? No, it must be TAUGHT what is 'right'... what is 'good'. And that is because what is 'right' and what is 'good' is NOT inbred; quite the contrary, what is BAD is what we have inherited.

  Thus, we have been taught, dear ones, that what is bad... is good... and what is good... is bad. We have been taught that man is born good and born 'innocent'... and in some cases DIGRESSES. That is not the truth, though: man is born 'bad'... if he is TAUGHT good... or somehow LEARNS good... PROGRESSES. And in the case where he is NOT taught and/or does NOT learn good, althought it was NOT apparent and manifest when he was a babe, such things BECOME apparent when he is a child... and go on from there. In many cases, a history of 'bad' can be traced, from childhood on.

  That is why the nation of Israel was held responsible for the upbringing of their children... why parents were EXHORTED to 'inculcate' good into their children and to take PERSONAL responsibility when their children did 'bad'. For it is incumbent upon the parent to 'train up' the child... and teach him good.

  Problem is, dear ones, MANY parents themselves are not good... nor do they KNOW good. (NOTE: I said many, not most and certainly not all...). They cannot, therefore, teach their children what they themselves have no knowledge of, for THEY were not taught 'good' either!

  And what is the 'good' that we must teach our children, that may not have been taught to us, but we MUST learn? LOVE!

  Humans, dear ones, are NOT born 'knowing' love, but must be TAUGHT love. Indeed, they are born needing AFFECTION, but needing affection... and knowing love and being able TO love... is NOT the same thing! Children hug and hold because they need to BE hugged and held. That, though, dears ones... is 'receiving'. Love, however, is something we must GIVE.

  So, no matter HOW much affection YOU may GIVE a child, and thus he or she may RECEIVE... if he or she is not taught to GIVE love in return... to you AND and to others... it will all come for naught. They will have learned to receive... but not to give. And, since, indeed, there is MORE happiness in giving... than in receiving... by not teaching our children to GIVE love... we are not teaching them to be happy... but rather, to be 'needy'. And 'needy' children grow up into 'needy' adults. And always, always, for such ones, there exists a void... that many times cannot be filled. By any means: drugs, alcohol, relationships, crime... death.

  By the spirit of my Father, the Holy One of Israel, JAH OF ARMIES, by means of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, I, myself, SJ, have spoken this to you. May the one that has ears hear what the Spirit says.

  Again, I bid you peace!
• 

  neyank

  Hi Shelby,

  Makes sense to me.

  neyank
• 

  larc

  Shelby,

  As you might expect, I see the matter much differently than you. I don't see the terms of good and bad as useful in understanding the human condition. I think a baby is born neutral, neither good nor bad. They are simply a raw bundle of needs that have not been socialized yet. How they are raised, with love and direction, will have a major influence on how they will turn out as an adult. (Prov. 22:6). Furthermore, I think that the average mother is programed to love their new born. This is built in and largely accounts for the survival of our species.
• 

  teejay

  What up, my Sistah?!! How you be?

  I tried to read your post all the way thru... honest I did!

  Larc, if I understand my learned friend, seems to bring more of a philosophical aspect to the debate in trying not to define actions as good or bad. Maybe he has a point. So, I will say, trying to bridge your thesis with his definition of the terms, that, while god don't talk to me none, it's my opinion that you are right. It surprises me that the world is as good as it is considering the average human's considerable inclination to be "bad" or act in ways societal norms deem undesirable.

  Where this "goodness" comes from is up for debate. I'm thinking that you'd probably say something like, "it's from God." I choose to think that maybe it's a manifestation of a form of instinct, like birds digging in the ground for worms. As no one teaches birds (other than other birds) how to find food in just the right places, after millennia the human species has learned that certain behaviors are not in the best interests of its survival and seeks to expunge these "bad" traits and tendencies.

  It doesn't always work, bad traits and bad people slip through the cracks, but I choose to be optimistic about the future.

  Holla.

  tj
• 

  SixofNine

  John Prine is so much better informed on this than you, Shelby. You would do well to listen and learn from a song he wrote, in which he states: "the scientific nature of the ordinary man, is to go on out and do the best he can."
• 

  Carmel

  Sorry Sista Shelb,

  Only Christians are born BAD! The rest of us are born noble and by our moral and ethical choices in life change that condition.

  Too bad you're playing for the wrong coach! Then some are motivated by fear, angst and negativity.

  carmel lite

  Oh, BTW theis is not from a delusional message in the night!
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Shelby: It all depends on definition of Sin. Many religions, like the WTS, Catholics, Baptists, etc., like yourself, believe that sin is inherited from Adam & Eve. The Bible itself makes this case. Sin is translated into physical imperfection that inhibits a person from the moment of conception, that is, they are given the bent toward sin.

  Amnong many features, the Bible is also a legalistic book. The Bible defines Sin as transgression against the Law. The Hebrew word for 'sin' is rooted in a broader term meaning 'to miss the mark' and makes the notion of inherited imperfection/sin easy to extrapolate as something inherant in babies. However, the way in which Sin has always used in Hebrew and Christian theology is confined to transgression against The Law of Moses.

  A baby, in my opinion, cannot know the Law, or physically carry out its requirements. A baby cannot transgress the Law because such transgression requires deliberate motive, choice, decision, and actions. By the Bible's own definition of Sin, babies must be sinless, and thus born good in a legal sense, if not in a real sense.

  I find the entire concept of Sin to be absurd. I we are products of the Sin of Adam, then we could not and did not choose to be Sinners. We did not choose to break The Law. And by the time of my birth, The Law of Moses was already out of force and effect for nearly 1920 years. So, I was born outside the requirements to keep any such Law. If there is no Law to prove righteousness, then there is nothing to transgress. Therefore, God, by his own legal manuevering took away the object that would be used to charge us with sin.

  The is why the Apostle John argued that Christ saved the whole world, especially those that believe. Looking at the sentance, the way he wrote it, implies that all are saved. believers are in a special sense, not because they are more saved, for salvations is either thiere or not htere. Rather, according to John, believers are especially saved bvecause they are aware of the assurance of salvation. So they enjoy a life of freedom in an extra way. It can be likened to each person having a million dollars in the bank. All are wealthy, but those who believe the million dollars is there enjoy the secure feeling of such wealth. But, all still have the same wealth, even non-believers, but non-believers just don't know it yet.

  This is what I would expect of God, to remove the charge of sin, since the human race never chose to sin ... it was a cruel joke handed down ... and we never deserved this junk. I would expect that a God of love would at least start from the premise that he does not hold us accountable and punish us for the sins of Adam and Eve.

  While God has removed the legal charge made by The Law of Moses, there is still great suffering, ignorance, and acts of sin in the real sense, if not legal sense. And God keeps watching his heaveningly clock, now ticking for thousands of years, claiming to be our father who loves us, but he sits back and just watched the clock like kids in school waiting to get out of class. All the while, he withholds his power, as people are raped, tortured, murdered, suffer starvation, disease, and hopelessness. And many Christians who act in God's name bring all sorts of mixed messages ... from the Watchtower, to Mormons, to fundamentalists idiots. In the mix are good, balanced Christians from various denominations ... but, I wonder how God can reasonably expect that this is really the way to bring him to people ... to bring hope, relief from suffering, and bring about a good and righteous planet.

  Something is fishy about this whole thing ... something is not adding up ... and all we can do is watch ourselves. Because unlike God, we have no real power to do what he can do. All we can do is what we see on a small scale, and within very limited ability.

  Are we born good? There is no way to prove this one way or another. Is there a God? One would like to think so, but again no way to prove it. Are we really deserving of death because of the sin of Adam? If so, it is a cruel and sick sense of justice coming forth from one who claims to be God and Father. Is not charged because the Son of God died? That is what the Bible says, and at least redeems God to the point of doing what he should have done in the Garden of Eden - that is - remove any charge from innocent children born of Adam and Eve ... though God took over 4,000 year to get around to it. So, I am sure God will be just as patient with me, as I take my sweet time to get around to a few things. -
• 

  D wiltshire

  I beleive we were born both bad and good.
  Parenting has a lot to do with how we turn out but, not as much as some would suggest.
  Free will gives us the choice. What we set our minds on is a choice we get from free will.
  There are manipulators that may trip us up, and lead us one way or the other.
  Pain may move one to do bad or good the same goes for pleasure.
  Inherited traits definitly play a part but they could be good, bad, and neutral.

  If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
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  Simon

  Maybe we are just born 'blank'?

  It's one of the things I've wondered about ...

  Are 'bad' people bad because they have been brought up bad (so not their fault) or were born bad (so again, not their fault) and likewise 'good' people ... is their goodness deserved or just accidental.

  Maybe a combination of both?