Not The Truth? The Elders Might Disagree!

by Derrick 5 Replies latest jw friends

  • Derrick
    Derrick

    The silence of the lambs slaughtered before judicial committee hearings is intense:

    Judicial Committee Hearing Discussion:
    http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=311102&CategoryID=2972&startcat=1&ThreadID=120980

    I would deeply appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

    Then maybe consider becoming a participant in a probing Jehovah's Witnesses online electronic-survey. The more JWs, ex-JWs and those who were never JWs but have an interest in JWs for whatever reason who fill-out this electronic questionnaire (takes approx. 5 minutes), the more we can all benefits from the GRAPHED RESULTS (provided in a link below the survey). Please at least check it out:

    http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=311102&CategoryID=2967&startcat=1&ThreadID=120593

    The survey is shown in graphic format up-to-the-minute as well.

    Thanks, and may God bless you all.

    Derrick
    aka screen name CogentMinded on H2O

    To see a World in a Grain of Sand
    And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
    Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
    And Eternity in an hour.

    -- William Blake (Auguries of Innocence)

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    After reading some (yes, not all) of the link provided, the words of the poster struck a chord and evoked a new thought. (Yes, I ocassionally have thoughts.) Interesting questions to ask a witness:
    1. Does God reveal things individually to us or only to the FDS.
    --A. Only to the FDS. (can supply references if you're skeptical)
    2. What is the point of praying for God's direction right before a Judicial Committee meeting if he does not reveal his thoughts to individuals?
    --A. Okay, you supply this one.

  • Derrick
    Derrick
    After reading some (yes, not all) of the link provided, the words of the poster struck a chord and evoked a new thought. (Yes, I ocassionally have thoughts.) Interesting questions to ask a witness:
    1. Does God reveal things individually to us or only to the FDS.
    --A. Only to the FDS. (can supply references if you're skeptical)

    Probing thoughts! You don't need to prove your premise, for it is a scriptural fact God reveals things to the FDS. The question begs that if someone or group of people identifies themselves as the 'faithful and discreet slave class' spoken about in the book of Matthew -- then how is the authenticity of this most serious claim verified?

    Furthermore the conclusion that God only reveals things exclusively to the FDS as a class and NOT TO INDIVIDUALS is illogical. The FDS only comprises a "class" per se, when all members of this "class" are gathered together (and no member of the "class" is absent). Any Jehovah's Witness on Earth can stake a claim to being a member of this class. In any case if Jehovah refuses to reveal things to anyone as an individual in the "FDS class," unless the entire "FDS class" is assembled, then describe the exact method of communication? Is it telepathic, or just a vague sense of getting words recited in one's brain as they sit assembled with other FDS members? What if I was sitting at the table with others of the FDS class and I said "I get the distinct message from Jehovah's Holy Spirit that it is unscriptural to disfellowship?" Others might say, "I never got that message" Does it require all members of the "FDS class" to get the same signal from Jehovah? Uh, wait a minute, that's two-thirds majority vote isn't it? Where in the Bible does it claim Jehovah (a) only communicates with the FDS as a "class" who are all assembled, and (b) to avoid "false signals" from the Devil (or simply last night's delicious chile in the Bethel dining room), a two-thirds majority for receiving that signal telepathically or in a similar manner is required?

    Obviously the idea that Jehovah doesn't communicate with individuals but saves it for the FDS as a collective body requires some major proof. For the Bible is filled with examples of God coming to individuals in dreams and visions, or appearances by angels, etc. I don't ever recall a situation where God held an assembly and then sent a communication to this body of his servants as a "class" who represented the "FDS" or similar authority.

    This might be a problematic way for Jehovah to communicate because suppose someone like Judas who was loved and trusted by Christ, and part of the body of Apostles, claimed he got a message from the Father to do this or that? And just suppose that SATAN had sent that message, it turned out? In hindsight one might claim that the entire group of Apostles didn't receive a similar communication, and should have seen the writing on the wall! They should have known the source of Judas's inspiration was not from Jehovah.

    However, that was hardly the issue! Trusted servants of Jehovah received individual communications and other factors were factored in, as to the authenticity of the communication from God. Many who were false prophets, warned Jesus, claimed to receive divine inspiration from the Father.

    All considered, I see no scriptural evidence that divine inspiration over the millenniums worked according to the current organizational structure of the Watchtower.0

    2. What is the point of praying for God's direction right before a Judicial Committee meeting if he does not reveal his thoughts to individuals?
    --A. Okay, you supply this one.
    Good point. Based on the Watchtower's every evolving reasoning, this could explain why I have heard they rarely if ever pray or consult the Bible at judicial committee hearings. Based on the above, a strong case exists they are leaving Jehovah God out of the judicial process. This is probably for the better since I believe God would not bless a process that he never endorsed in his written Word.

    Indeed, we should consult Jehovah in prayer regarding any endeavor involving the Christian congregation. The problem with consulting God through prayer in the Watchtower organization is evident. If disfellowshiping is really considered by the Society as a form of spiritual execution where the elders' decision has a direct impact on the disfellowshipee's everlasting life -- and claiming it is "loving discipline" is public relations to avoid "stumbling" those who are "outside the truth" -- then I can see how praying at a JC hearing is perhaps avoided. Why would you pray for Jehovah's wisdom in deciding innocence or guilt, when the Watchtower Society -- who are considered to occupy the highest "holy place" on Earth today -- has already passed adverse judgment on them?

    In summary, as Jehovah's Witnesses today we've got to keep in mind that those who have self-identified themselves as Christ's FDS have placed themselves on a "throne" of authority. Or further put, they have seated themselves in a holy place we would expect Christ to otherwise occupy. It's difficult to argue with the self claimed authority of those on a governing body who have slaved for almost a century in some cases to lead a global evangelical effort. Humans by nature tend to be superstitious. We assume that Jehovah wouldn't allow them to conduct home Bible studies worldwide and then seat themselves in the place of Christ -- as mediator between Christ and "spiritual Isreal" -- if God's purpose was not to give this self appointed FDS all authority over Christ's earthly affairs.

    The book "The Prince of Peace" published by the Watchtower Society in the 1980's comes to mind. Many reason that our immediate Father whom the book identifies as Jesus Christ (in order to explain some Trinitarian scriptures that refer to Jesus as our Father) -- on authority from our loving Grandfather who is Jehovah whom the book reasons is such from the standpoint that Jehovah who created us through Christ -- has assigned the FDS as our "nanny", in a sense, over his household for a season prior to Armageddon. Therefore out of respect for Jesus Christ who is in fact our heavenly Father according to the book -- not to mention respecting his Father who is in actuality our Grandfather -- we are told to obey our "nanny" the FDS to whom Christ gave all authority!

    That last part was confusing back when "The Prince of Peace" came out in the late 1980's. I mean, Jesus is really our "Father" or Dad, and Jehovah is really our "Grandfather" or Grand Daddy? There was no other way to explain why Jesus was referred to as "Father" as if he was actually God himself (I'll find that scripture if you don't know the one I'm referring to which was the basis of that argument in Prince of Peace). However, the bottomline is that if we were children and our parents and grandparents painstakingly hired a nanny to take care of us, that nanny would be the final authority in our parents' absence! Somewhere in that publication the Society pointed out the same holds true for the FDS.

    The analogy seems to fail in that my real parents would introduce me to the nanny, and tell me they were going away for a time, and that the nanny was in charge! Neither Christ or Jehovah God introduced me to this nanny. Rather, a representative of this nanny (whom I later became, myself!), came to my door and told me -- on their good word -- that my "parents" Jesus and Jehovah were assigning myself to the charge of this nanny or FDS until further notice, maybe forever? Being too spiritually immature to see the necessity of asking my parents if I should go with this nanny, I just went. Now I'm at home while the "nanny" is in court fighting lawsuits, and finding out through the news, so to speak, that my parents are frantically looking for me, that I'm missing! I don't understand.

    See, according to the "nanny" or FDS, individuals are not "divinely inspired" or communicated to by my Father. No, the "nanny" tells me that my Father only communicates to me through the "nanny." It seems rather circular, I mean, who gave this "nanny" all authority over my life? According to this "nanny," my Dad gave them authority. Also, I'm not allowed to go and ask my Dad in person, or hear this from my Dad, because my Dad is supposed to only communicate with this "nanny" who one day came to my door and claimed my Dad had sent them to pick me up. Now I'm at the nanny's house, and I'm told the newscaster is a liar influenced by a "Satan" or whomever, that it's all lies that my Dad is frantically looking for me. If only my Dad could tell me the nanny or FDS is legit, that would put my troubled heart to rest! I cannot understand why my Dad would put me in the charge of a strict nanny who wouldn't ever let me have fun, even though many of my Dad's writings speak of the meaning of existence as loving one another, enjoying the company of loved ones, and having an enjoyable and happy life!

    The "nanny" keeps telling me that Dad didn't really mean to have "fun" and I've spent much of my youth only reading stuff the nanny writes. I'm told these writings will help "interpret" what my Dad has written. I'm told lots of what he wrote doesn't apply to me personally, like the part about enjoying life and having fun.

    As I digress, no more belaboring of the issue of "authority" and how to verify whether an organization that claims to have authority directly from God over our lives, is telling us the truth.

    "A penny for your thoughts."

    Derrick

    To see a World in a Grain of Sand
    And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
    Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
    And Eternity in an hour.

    -- William Blake (Auguries of Innocence)

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy
    The question begs that if someone or group of people identifies themselves as the 'faithful and discreet slave class' spoken about in the book of Matthew -- then how is the authenticity of this most serious claim verified?

    I have asked that question myself! Enjoyed your comments very much, Derrick. I don't remember 'the prince of peace' Is it on the WT CD?

  • Derrick
    Derrick
    The question begs that if someone or group of people identifies themselves as the 'faithful and discreet slave class' spoken about in the book of Matthew -- then how is the authenticity of this most serious claim verified?
    I have asked that question myself! Enjoyed your comments very much, Derrick. I don't remember 'the prince of peace' Is it on the WT CD?

    Yes, I recall finding The Prince of Peace (a hardcover book published in the late 1980's by the Watchtower Society) on the CD the last time I researched the book from the CD, about 5-10 years ago (on Windows 95).

    I consider the book out of the mainstream of most Watchtower publications, because it covers what some might consider "controversial" Biblical interpretations such as:

    - The elders will receive the divinely appointed assignment of serving as Princes over human civilization after Armageddon.

    - God's Son is in actuality our Heavenly Father, because all things were created by Jehovah God through his Son. We were not directly created by God, but created by God's angelic Son who is also Father to the angels of Heaven. (I recall commentary that explained Satan's former relationship with Jesus Christ before Jehovah created Earth and the Garden of Eden. I'm not certain if the book said that Satan was created by Jesus Christ along with the other angels, making Satan the "son" of Jesus Christ, or some other explanation? Perhaps someone who remembers this explanation -- how the Society explained Satan's relationship to Jesus Christ as a "brother" if Christ created all things and this logically included Satan's creation?)

    - Jehovah God is actually our Grandfather because Jehovah created Jesus and is his Father, and Jesus created all other things including humans and is thus Father to humanity. In the prophecy referring to the "Prince of Peace" in the Hebrew scriptures, Jesus is referred to not only as "Prince of Peace" but in the same sentence as "Heavenly Father." This scripture was the basis for the book. Christians outside the Jehovah's Witnesses faith who believe that Jesus Christ is God have used this scripture as one of the many citations of their belief. The Watchtower Society thus must have felt impelled to set the matter straight through the publication of this book.

    If you find the above referenced commentary in the book on the CD, perhaps you can post relevant citations?

    Derrick

    To see a World in a Grain of Sand
    And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
    Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
    And Eternity in an hour.

    -- William Blake (Auguries of Innocence)

  • QUEENIE
    QUEENIE

    OH HELL --- H A P P Y V A L E N T I N E S D A Y --- PASS A STOGGY NONE THE LESS..OH RIGHT ELDERS ON THE COMMITTEE!!!! hahahahaha

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