Revelation 19:1:- Christians or Angels?

by stevieb1 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • stevieb1
    stevieb1

    hi, I've been researching the Society's explanation of the 144,000 and the great crowd in some consderable depth and I've reached the conclusion that both groups are one and the same, hence I digress from the WatchTower's "two class" theology.

    Many sites dealing with witnessing to JW's often cite Revelation 19:1 as proof that the "great crowd" is in heaven. This verse reads:

    "After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.They said: "Praise Jah, you people! The salvation and the glory and the power belon to ur God" - Revelation 19:1 NWT

    Jehovah's Witnesses claim that these words are spoken by angels and not by redeemed Christians in heaven. The way I refute that is by simply saying that the verse praises God as the source of salvation. Angels, according to Watchtower publication "Choosing the Best Way of Life" (authored by Raymond Franz whilst still on the Govering Body) "have no personal need for the divine arrangement of salvation." (Compare 1 Peter 1:12)

    So from this small point and from the rest of Revelation chapter 9 we can say with confidence that this great crowd in verse 1 is a crowd of redeemable mankind in heaven.

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Howdy stevie,

    Seems you hold the ten horned dragon book in rather high regard, taking it literally and all. Tell me, having studied it as thoroughly as you have, to whom is it addressed? Is it only for Christian consumption? If it is addressed to all of humanity, would any of your anthropomorhic renderings change?

    the candyman

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    Carmel
    The book of Revelation was written to the Seven Churches in Asia, or should I say the Universal Church in Asia.

    stevieb1

    More food for thought, if Revelation 7 is to be taken literally, there would only be 144,000 Jewish male virgins taken from a square shaped earth that are now in heaven worshipping a sheep. This would mean that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Charles Taze Russell (not a Jew) could not be in heaven. Reading one number literally while taking the rest of a book symbolically is not sound exegesis. Beyond this, we see in Revelation 14 that the 144,000 stand before the 24 elders from Revelation 4:4. This at least brings the grand total to 144,024 people. But, the Scriptures indicate that there are still more to come. Revelation 7:9 speaks of a countless multitude before the throne, which is in heaven (Rev. 14:2-3). Still in the book of Revelation, we read that all those with their name in the book of life are in heaven (Rev. 21:27), while all whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the pool of fire (Rev. 20:15). There is no third "earthly" class. Jesus reiterates this, and never speaks of two flocks. He has one bride, whose "reward is great in heaven" (Luke 6:23). Paul even exhorts the Christian community, calling them to remember, "As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens" (Phil. 3:20).

    The WT attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.

    The Great and Powerful Oz:

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
  • lydia
    lydia

    Stevieb1,
    My understanding of the Book of revelation is that it was written to then worshipping congregations...not the whole church - but those who attend on a regular basis. While it is still relevant to us - the understanding and meaning of it has been so distorted by so many groups it is ridiculous... the interpretations of many of the verses - which would have made perfect sense to thos congregations - are bogus.
    I have been studying this book for some time..
    Rev. 19:1 refers to not just angels but the company of conquerors who have kept the faith.
    I would encourage you to read " The Augsburg Commentary on the New Testament Revelation" by Gerhard A. Krodel
    It gives you an interesting and understandable commentary on it - and also brings out how the people of John's day not only would have understood some of the references.. but the symbols too.
    I wish you well on this quest..
    Lydia

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Jesus never promised eternal life on earth. Nor did he himself expect to live here forever.His disciples did not live on the earth forever. Neither did his mother. Nor did the early Christians. Nor later Christians. Nor those since 1914. No one in two thousand years
    has been included among the so-called "Millions now living will never die." Why should we hope to live on earth forever? Jesus said:
    "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You trust in God, trust also in me. In my Father's house there are many
    places to live in; otherwise I would have told you.. I am going now to prepare a place for you, and after I have gone
    and prepared you a place, I shall return to take you to myself, so that you may be with me where I am. You know the
    way to the place I am going. Thomas said, 'Lord, we do not know where you are going, so how can we know the
    way?' Jesus said: I am the Way; I am Truth and Life. No one can come to the Father except through me..." John 14:1-7

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    lydia

    My understanding of the Book of revelation is that it was written to then worshipping congregations...not the whole church - but those who attend on a regular basis.
    This is a very interesting reading of Revelation, can you show any reasoning or evidence for this understanding?

    The Great and Powerful Oz:

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
  • Carmel
    Carmel

    So Willy my friend,

    Take a look at the actual churches described. Did they all literally exist? Were they alone literaly to be the audience? Were the beasts and thrones and scenes depicted, which rival the Lord of the Rings special effects, to be taken all literally?

    cheers,

    carmel

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    The JWs main problem is they 'spiritualize' anything that doesn't match with their theology. They don't seem to care about the 144,000 being listed as Jews because they think they are Jews. Sound nuts? They take the term spiritual Jew to define themselves and define 'gentiles' as all worldy people. The problem with that is the bible doesn't back up those usages.
    They use Rev.7 for their 2 class system -- 144,000 and a great multitude. Notice though that 'a great multitude'- even in the very passage they quote-- says they are before the throne and in front of the Lamb. JWs do believe God's throne is in heaven so how can the great multitude be before his throne if they are not there?

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438
    My understanding of the Book of revelation is that it was written to then worshipping congregations...not the whole church - but those who attend on a regular basis.

    That is innaccurate. Not the whole book of revelation is letters to chuches- only the first 3 chapters are.
    Also read the very words of introduction to the book:
    "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take it to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."
    Food for Thought

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    Carmel

    take a look at the question i answered.

    to whom is it addressed?
    my answer was "the Seven Churches in Asia" (no you say?)
    Did they all literally exist?
    that would depend on what a "church" is. there was not seven buildings but there was seven churches.
    Were they alone literally to be the audience?

    no, i understand seven is the number of completeness and fullness; thus the seer is writing for the whole Church. the "Universal Church in Asia" was my (bad) joking way of saying that.
    Were the beasts and thrones and scenes depicted, which rival the Lord of the Rings special effects, to be taken all literally?
    the "beasts and thrones and scenes", i believe, are symbolic. I'm sorry if I gave you another impression.

    The Great and Powerful Oz:

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit