by 3Mozzies 6 Replies latest watchtower bible
During Jesus’ “Farewell Discourse,” the last address that Jesus delivers to his disciples, chapters 13 to 17 of John.
Peter says to Jesus, “Lord, where are you going?” (John 13:36)
A few verses later Thomas says, “Lord, we do not know where you are going” (John 14:5).
And then later during the same meal, Jesus says to his disciples: “Now I am going to the one who sent me, yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ ” (John 16:5).
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3Mozzies
That's funny! Maybe it was the wine!
Hadit
We had a thread on this a few months ago. In that thread I pointed out that the chapters seem to be reshuffled out of order. From Helmut Koester's classic work Ancient Christian Gospels (1990):
Another aspect of the question of the integrity of the extant text of this Gospel concerns the order of its chapters and sections. Major disorder exists in two instances. The first concerns the sequence of chapters 4-7. At the end of chapter 4, Jesus is in Galilee, at the beginning of chapter 5 he goes to Jeruslem, chapter 6:1 says, "And after this Jesus went to the other side of the Sea of Galilee," and 7:1 reports that Jesus left Jerusalem and went about in Galilee, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. Moreover, John 7 continues the discussion of the theme of judgement which had been initiated in chapter 5. If the order were chapters 4, 6, 5, 7, all these difficulties would be removed.
The second major disorder is apparent in John 14:30-31. At the conclusion of this first part of the farewell discourses Jesus says: "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go hence." But it only in 18:1 that this command is followed by an appropriate action: "When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples across the Kidron valley where there was a garden." In spite of the clear "Rise, let us go hence" in John 14:31, chapters 15-17 continue the farewell discourses. It has been suggested that chapters 15-17 are a later interpolation. But in language, style, and content these three chapters belong with 13-14. It is clear, therefore, that they are not in the right place. Chapters 15-16 may have followed John 13:34-35 because 15:1-17 is a commentary on the commandment to love each other, and 13:36-38 seems a good continuation of 16:31. This leaves John 17, the farewell prayer of Jesus. No satisfactory solution has been found for the placement of this chapter. Bultmann suggests to place it after 13:31a, i.e. after the designation of Judas and before the statement "Now is the Son of Man glorified". That John 17 was added after the displacement of chapters 15-16 had already occurred, is also possible because chapter 17 is characterized by a theological interpretation of Jesus' departure that differs markedly from the farewell discourses in chapters 13-16; its orientation is more explicitly Gnostic. (p. 249)
I pointed out that the chapters seem to be reshuffled out of order...
THANK you, dear Leolaia (peace to you!). While many would not be able to accept this truth from me, the word of my Lord to me is that this actually the case with several of the "books" in the Bible. Along with the fact that many have also had their original writings/statements altered, added to... or omitted.
Again, thank you and peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
Along with the fact that many have also had their original writings/statements altered, added to... or omitted.
I agree as well, that this has happened to the bible, this is one of the reasons why I personally think that the bible was not inspired.
Why would God allow His book to be altered: words added & words omitted? Why wouldn't He protect His word? How can anyone be sure of what Jesus said/did? We don't have the original writings, only copies of copies of copies 300+ years of copies. Ever played 'Chinese whispers'? Imagine playing that over 300+ years. The mind boggles.
Just my 2c
I have no problem with people being Christian or believing in the bible, so no disrespect to you AGuest or Leolaia. That's why I love this site, we are all different and I have learnt so much here and continue to learn. Unlike the Watchtower Org, we all have freeness of speech on this forum and write down our thoughts/beliefs without the fear of punishment.
Thank you Leolaia for your research, just adds to my knowledge bank (which is pretty low at the moment).
3Mozzies
No disrespect perceived, dear 3Mozzies (peace to you!). However, I have to say that while the Bible is NOT God's inspired Word (but only contains SOME inspired words... ), even what He inspired can be tampered with, altered, etc. How do we know? Well, the Revelation was most certainly inspired (Revelation 1:19; 4:2). Yet, John wrote that my Lorded stated:
“I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll."
So, it doesn't say that it CAN'T be done... but what would occur if (and thus, when) it DID. Indeed, no point in making such a warning... if "making an addition"... or "tak[ing] anything away"... COULDN'T be done.
Again, I bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
Why would God allow His book to be altered: words added & words omitted? Why wouldn't He protect His word? How can anyone be sure of what Jesus said/did? We don't have the original writings, only copies of copies of copies 300+ years of copies. Ever played 'Chinese whispers'? Imagine playing that over 300+ years. The mind boggles.
Its NOT as bad as you make it out to be, ALL historical books came about the same way.
300 years is not that long in terms of Historicity.
I think that it MAY be an issue if someone is claming that NONE of the passages could have been changed or that every word in the bible is unaltered but very few people do claim that.
Some times words were altered, meanings altered by ,istake, sometimes as part of the translation process, sometimes bacuse the original was lost and the scribe added what he thought "might go there", etc.
The simple fact that WE are dicsussing these things, and that they have been discussed for decades, centuries even, just shows that this is "nothing new".
