What does it mean to be found faithful?

by kes152 7 Replies latest jw friends

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  kes152

  When he said his servants are to be found faithful, what did he mean by that? Whom does he consider faithful servants?

  If you have ever seen the movie Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory (1971), in that movie there was a man named Willy Wonka who was seeking a young, honest, loving child to take over his factory. He wanted this because he felt he could no longer run his factory alone and he did not want an adult to do it. He believed an adult would want to run the factory his own way, possibly even make shortcuts in the work in effort to gain more profit. Mr. Wonka cared about his workers, his chocolate, and the many children and people who would enjoy his chocolate. He wanted a child who shared the same values he has, one who would care about the workers, the chocolate, and the overall run of the factory. So he sent out golden tickets for the purpose of inviting children into his factory (who unknowingly were being tested) to see if any of them could be chosen. It was the honest child Charlie, who proved himself faithful, who received the factory. Charlie showed through his honesty that he cared about Mr. Wonka and his factory. He respected Mr. Wonka’s work and repented of his error against Mr. Wonka and the factory when he offered back the candy. These things mattered to Mr. Wonka because this was the kind of child he was looking for. Charlie showed himself to be such a child.

  The Lord also seeks the same faithfulness. He desires people who value the same things he values. What does the Lord value? What was the command he gave to his servants before he left? Did he not say, “You must love one another, even as I have loved you; that you love one another?” And does not the Lord himself value love, kindness, mercy, justice, and honesty? So when he said he desires his servants to be found faithful, faithful in what? Would it not be servants who were faithful in the thing he asked of them? Servants who love one another as he has loved them? And because of their having this love, would not such love result (manifest itself) in their being kind, patient, understanding, and wise people? And what happens if a servant is doing some but not all? Could he say he is “faithful” or competent in doing what his Lord asked of him? He cannot, because in order to be found faithful he must do the entirety of what he asked. If he has the love he will be a kind, patient, understanding and wise individual. Is such a thing possible for his servants to do while they are not perfect? Yes, it is. For in order to do it, they need him. They must change who they are and know what he knows in order to become more like him. And when they are “with him”… they are kind, loving, patient, understanding, and wise individuals. If at any time (or any moment) they deviate from him, they will not be kind, loving individuals. This is how people will know his people… by how they act and what their fruits are. If they don’t have these fruits, it can only be because they are not “with him.” And regardless of what they say or how they try to prove they are his, their fruits will speak louder than they can.
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  AGuest

  Greetings, dear kes152... and the greatest of love and peace to you!

  I, too, once thought that "faithfulness" was as you state it. I have learned, however, from our Lord, that it is something much more. I would like to respond, therefore, to what you have posted here, if I may. Thank you! First, please know that "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" was one of my MOST treasured books as a child. I was disappointed in both movies (Gene Hackman, Johnny Depp - even though I LOVE Johnny Depp)... for one primary reason: the depiction of the Oompa Loompas. Due to the attempt at polictical correctness, neither movie portrayed this little people as Mr. Dahl did and both lost someone... great, IMHO... as a result. Be that as it may:

  It was the honest child Charlie, who proved himself faithful, who received the factory.

  I realize that, based on the definition of faith, Charlie may have proved himself faithful in believing he could even GET a golden ticket. But he almost lost faith, didn't he? Indeed, it was his grandfather... the one he took with him... who, even though very old and very sickly... who maintained his faith. But I can't see where faith played a role in gaining Charlie the factory. The story seems to indicate that, while yes, a little faith was involved, it was all of the OTHER attributes that did this, primarily his LOYALTY... to Mr. Wonka... which he demonstrated by not taking advantage of that man during the adventure. And his integrity... by showing himself as one who would not have deviated from what he knew was right.

  Charlie showed through his honesty that he cared about Mr. Wonka and his factory.

  Yes, but was it really his honesty that was the thing? I mean, the others were honest, too, weren't they? For example, Augustus Gloop loved chocolate... and he was VERY honest about it. Veruka Salt was a spoiled brat... which she absolutely did not deny. Weren't the things that Charlie showed Mr. Wonka go beyong that, though? Things like: not being the kind of person that treated others unkind; not coveting what another had... not being greedy, selfish, self-assuming, haughty, unkind, aggressive... but instead being humble, patient, long-suffering, peaceable... and things like these?

  He respected Mr. Wonka’s work and repented of his error against Mr. Wonka and the factory when he offered back the candy.

  Yes, but I am not sure that that is being "faithful." Faithful indicates that the one is "full of faith," yes? But what is "faith"? Isn't it knowing for a certain that the thing one HOPES for... will happen/be done/be given one... WILL take place/occur... based on some kind of EVIDENCE given to such one... even if that evidence is not realized by one's physical eyes/ears, etc.?

  I bring these things up because I learned from our Lord that being "faithful" has absolutely NOTHING to do with what most of us have been taught it does. For example, the WTBTS considers "faithful" those who regularly attend meetings and participate in field service. And while that may indeed be "religious" (i.e., "she attends meetings religiously")... that does not mean the one so attending/particpating is faithful.

  I mean, such a one can attend every single meeting for 60 years. Yet, if the Most Holy One of Israel Himself spoke to such a one and told them to build an ark... but such one did not do it because they didn't BELIEVE Him when He said He was going to bring a flood... THAT would be a LACK of faith, wouldn't it? And so, such one would be a person WITHOUT faith, yes?

  So, WE demonstrate OUR faith... NOT just by being honest ("It was God who told me to build the Ark")... but by FOLLOWING THE THING... HEARD. By BUILDING the ark. Yes? By OBEYING what we heard and DOING "just so." EVEN... if what we heard was not heard by any other person.

  So, I am having a bit of a time correlating Charlie's conduct... although very GOOD... to being "faithful." Because I cannot find anyone... or anything... in the story... that he put his faith... IN.

  Can you help me "see" so that I understand why YOU believe him to have been "faithful"?

  Thank you... peace to you... and may JAH bless!

  YOUR servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

  SA
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  cameo-d

  "So when he said he desires his servants to be found faithful, faithful in what?"

  When did Jesus ever call anyone "his servants"? Can you provide any scriptures where he designated followers as "his servants"?
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  kes152

  Hi Shel,

  I thank you for the peace and I also wish it upon you and your household too (smile). I do agree that Charlie had loyalty to Mr. Wonka. I do not, however, believe that Charlie’s loyalty had come from a vacuum. Charlie believed something about Mr. Wonka. His belief resulted in his loyalty to Mr. Wonka and the other things he did while he was in the factory.

  I do believe out of all the children, Charlie was honest. The other children were not honest because honesty is not a matter of whether one tells the truth nor is it a matter of not hiding one’s problem (i.e. greed, selfishness, etc.). Honesty refers to showing uprightness, fairness, sincerity, not disposed to cheating, defrauding or deceiving. If one has a problem and they are honest about it, this would mean they intend to change their problem so that it does not get in the way of them doing what is right. This was not the case with the other children. This is why people, even the Adversary, can tell the truth and yet not be considered honest.

  The overall point of the matter, as you have mentioned, is that faithfulness cannot be determined only by what one does. The faithfulness that our Lord seeks from us is that which adheres to the things he believes, the things he values (because one can have faith in anything). If we want to be found faithful, our loyalty, our faith, our direction should be to do and practice what he has told us, to love one another even as he has loved us. And in order to do this, we need to keep looking at him as we are dealing with others so that we can be kind, patient, understanding, and wise individuals.
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  AGuest

  Yes, I understand what you're now saying, dear kes152 (the greatest of love and peace to you!)... and agree that Charlie may have been the most honest out of all the children. I have to touch on the following, though, if you will permit me:

  Charlie believed something about Mr. Wonka.

  I am not so sure that this goes to what you're trying to prove. Charlie believed Mr. Wonka knew how to make chocolate and other wonderful treats, yes. He knew Mr. Wonka was fun. He knew Mr. Wonka was "magical." Did he know whether Mr. Wonka dealt honestly with his creditors? Did he know whether Mr. Wonka really took care of the Oompa Loompas (did Charlies actually interview one)? Did Charlie know what Mr. Wonka did when he left the factory and went home... or if he lived in the factory, who Mr. Wonka might have had brought in, say, at night??? No. Because Charlie did not know Mr. Wonka the man; Charlie was learning about Mr. Wonka the candy-maker.

  And so, may I ask you, with regard to your comment "If one has a problem and they are honest about it, this would mean they intend to change their problem so that it does not get in the way of them doing what is right":

  Isn't it possible to be honest... and simply ACCEPT one's "problems"... knowing that one might not be ABLE to change? Or be honest about them but have absolutely no INTENTION to change? Let me give you an example:

  "... he spoke this illustration also to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and who considered the rest as nothing: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, 'O God, I thank you I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give the tenth of all things I acquire.' But the tax collector standing at a distance was not willing even to raise his eyes heavenward, but kept beating his breast, saying, 'O God, be gracious to me a sinner.'"

  In this parable, the tax collector knew... and ACCEPTED... his "problems." But I can't see anywhere where he indicated he could change, would change, even felt he needed to change. Rather, I see where he asked for MERCY... as a result of his problems. He acknowledged... honestly... that he was a sinner. He did not say that he was going to CHANGE that. I also don't see where our Lord made change a "requirement" before saying:

  "I tell YOU, This man went down to his home proved more righteous than that man; because everyone that exalts himself will be humiliated, but he that humbles himself will be exalted."

  In this account, I simply see where a man asked for mercy regarding his sins... and because of his FAITH... received such mercy: he was counted as "righteous." Please note, I am not advocating sin, saying that there is no need to work on matters. That is another thread entirely... and I believe between each one and God/Christ; however, according to this parable, this man WAS considered righteous on account of his FAITH. Because his FAITH... had do to with his KNOWLEDGE (evident demonstration)... that God WAS merciful (the reality)... and so that if he ASKED he would receive (assured expectation) the thing he HOPED for: mercy.

  In your account, however, you would have to show that Charlie KNEW Mr. Wonka was a benevolent man and so HOPED he would inherit the chocolate factory...IF he was good, kind, unselfish, etc. I offer to you that Charlie did NOT receive the factory for these reasons... but as a result of a GIFT... from Mr. Wonka. Which gift was given NOT as a result of Charlie's FAITH... but because Mr. Wonka believed... that Charlie was trustworthy. HE... had faith... IN CHARLIE.

  Do you see what I mean?

  Again, the greatest of love and peace to you!

  Your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  garyneal

  marked for later
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  AGuest

  Can you provide any scriptures where he designated followers as "his servants"?

  Since no one else responded, dear cameo-d (peace to you), please permit me. Note, no scripture, per se, but John 12:26 states what you're asking about, depending on which Bible version you're using:

  All those who want to be my disciples must come and follow me, because my servants must be where I am. And if they follow me, the Father will honor them. (NLT)

  Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me. (NIV)

  If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour. (KJV)

  Again, peace to you!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
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  AnneB

  "...faithfulness cannot be determined only by what one does. The faithfulness that our Lord seeks from us is that which adheres to the things he believes, the things he values (because one can have faith in anything). If we want to be found faithful, our loyalty, our faith, our direction should be to do and practice what he has told us, to love one another even as he has loved us. And in order to do this, we need to keep looking at him as we are dealing with others..."

  Faithfulness has a lot to do with obedience. They're not identical since, as aGuest mentioned, a person may have problems (in comprehension, in situation, etc.) which stand in the way of doing as the person may desire, that is, to obey, to be obedient.

  This is a huge issue in my own experience, "thanks" to the dubs. How to keep loving people (even close family members) who have shown themselves more "faithful" to organizational teachings than to the God that organization claims to represent?

  I remember a long-running debate among a group of dubs many years ago: Which is more important, loyalty or obedience? This thread seems to me to be along the same line.