Evolutionary Future of Man

by gravedancer 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • gravedancer
    gravedancer

    On another thread I was asked by Island woman about the potential future evolution of mankind ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=20456&site=3) So I went back into my Dawkins archives and dug up this gem.

    Enjoy!!!

    EVOLUTION is widely regarded as a progressive force thrusting inexorably towards racial improvement, which may be seen as offering some tangible hope for our troubled species. Unfortunately this way of thinking is based on two misunderstandings. First, it is by no means clear that evolution is necessarily progressive. Second, even when it is progressive, significant change proceeds on a time-scale many orders of magnitude longer than the scale of tens or hundreds of years with which historians feel at home.

    We can define evolutionary progress either in a value-laden or a value-neutral way--ie, either with or without building in notions of what is good or bad. A value-laden definition specifies whether the factor being monitored, be it brain-size, intelligence, artistic ability, physical strength or whatever, is desirable or undesirable. If a desirable factor increases, that is progress. But on a value-neutral definition, any change at all counts as progress, just so long as it continues on its course. Such a definition simply takes three entities in a time sequence--think of them as a series of ancestral fossils and call them Early, Middle and Late- -and asks whether the change from Early to Middle is in the same direction as the change from Middle to Late. If the answer is yes, that is a progressive change. This definition is value-neutral because the factor which we discover to be "progressive" could be something which we regard as bad--say, idleness or stupidity. In this value-neutral sense, a continued trend towards decreased brain size would be progressive, just as much as a trend towards increased brain size would be. The only thing that would not be progressive would be a reversal of the trend.

    It was once fashionable for biologists to believe in something called orthogenesis. This was the theory that trends in evolution constitute a driving force and continue under their own momentum. The Irish Elk was thought to have been driven extinct by its huge antlers, which in turn were thought to have grown bigger under the influence of an orthogenetic force. Perhaps initially there was some advantage in larger antlers and this was how the trend started. But, once started, the trend had its own internal unstoppability, and, as the generations went by, the antlers continued inexorably to grow until they drove the species extinct.

    We now think that the theory of orthogenesis is wrong. If a trend is seen towards increasing antler size, this is because natural selection favours larger antlers. Individual stags with large antlers have more offspring than stags with average-sized antlers, either because they survive better (unlikely) or attract females (probably irrelevant) or because they are better at intimidating rivals (likely). If the trend appears to persist for a long time in the fossil record, this indicates that natural selection was pushing in that direction for all that time. Metaphors like "inherent force" and "inexorable momentum" have no validity.

    It seems to follow that there is no general reason to expect evolution to be progressive--even in the weak, value-neutral sense. There will be times when increased size of some organ is favoured and other times when decreased size is favoured. Most of the time, average-sized individuals will be favoured in the population and both extremes will be penalised. During these times the population exhibits evolutionary stasis (ie, no change) with respect to the factor being measured. If we had a complete fossil record and looked for trends in some particular dimension, such as leg length, we would expect to see periods of no change alternating with fitful continuations or reversals in direction--like a weathervane in changeable, gusty weather.

    It is all the more intriguing to find that sometimes long, progressive trends in one direction do turn up. When an organ is used for intimidation (like a stag's antlers) or for attraction (like the peacock's tail), it may be that the best size to have--from the point of view of intimidation or attraction--is always slightly larger than the average in the population. Even when the average gets bigger, the optimum is always one step ahead. It is possible that such "moving-target selection" did drive the Irish Elk extinct after all: by pushing the "intimidation optimum" too far ahead of what would have been the overall "utilitarian optimum". Peacocks and male birds of paradise also seem to have been pushed, in this case by female-taste selection, far from the utilitarian optimum of an efficient flying and surviving machine (though they have not been driven over the edge into extinction).

    Another force driving progressive evolution is the so-called "arms- race". Prey animals evolve faster running speeds because predators do. Consequently predators have to evolve even faster running speeds, and so on, in an escalating spiral. Such arms races probably account for the spectacularly advanced engineering of eyes, ears, brains, bat "radar" and all the other high-tech weaponry that animals display. Arms races are a special case of "co-evolution". Co-evolution occurs whenever the environment in which creatures evolve is itself evolving. From an antelope's point of view, lions are part of the environment like the weather--with the important difference that lions evolve.

    Virtual progress

    I want to suggest a new kind of co-evolution which, I believe, may have been responsible for one of the most spectacular examples of progressive evolution: the enlargement of the human brain. At some point in the evolution of brains, they acquired the ability to simulate models of the outside world. In its advanced forms we call this ability "imagination. " It may be compared to the virtual-reality software that runs on some computers. Now here is the point I want to make. The internal "virtual world" in which animals live may in effect become a part of the environment, of comparable importance to the climate, vegetation, predators and so on outside. If so, a co-evolutionary spiral may take off, with hardware--especially brain hardware--evolving to meet improvements in the internal "virtual environment." The changes in hardware then stimulate improvements in the virtual environment, and the spiral continues.

    The progressive spiral is likely to advance even faster if the virtual environment is put together as a shared enterprise involving many individuals. And it is likely to reach breakneck speeds if it can accumulate progressively over generations. Language and other aspects of human culture provide a mechanism whereby such accumulation can occur. It may be that brain hardware has co-evolved with the internal virtual worlds that it creates. This can be called hardware-software co-evolution. Language could be both a vehicle of this co-evolution and its most spectacular software product. We know almost nothing of how language originated, since it started to fossilise only very recently, in the form of writing. Hardware has been fossilising for much longer--at least the brain's bony outer casing has. Its steadily increasing size, indicating a corresponding increase in the size of the brain itself, is what I want to turn to next.

    It is almost certain that modern Homo sapiens (which dates only from about 100,000 years ago) is descended from a similar species, H. erectus, which first appeared a little before 1.6m years ago. It is thought that H. erectus, in turn, was descended from some form of Australopithecus. A possible candidate which lived about 3m years ago is Australopithecus afarensis, represented by the famous "Lucy." These creatures, which are often described as upright-walking apes, had brains about the size of a chimpanzee's. Figure 1 on the next page shows pictures of the three skulls, in chronological order. Presumably the change from Australopithecus to erectus was gradual. This is not to say that it took 1.5m years to accomplish at a uniform rate. It could easily have occurred in fits and starts. The same goes for the change from erectus to sapiens. By about 300,000 years ago, we start to find fossils that are called "archaic H. sapiens", largish-brained people like ourselves but with heavy brow ridges more like H. erectus.

    It looks, in a general way, as though there are some progressive changes running through this series. Our braincase is nearly twice the size of erectus's; and erectus's braincase, in turn, is about twice the size of that of Australopithecus afarensis. This impression is vividly illustrated in the next picture, which was prepared using a program called Morph.*

    To use Morph, you supply it with a starting picture and an ending picture, and tell it which points on the starting picture correspond to which opposite-number points on the ending picture. Morph then computes a series of mathematical intermediates between the two pictures. The series may be viewed as a cine film on the computer screen, but for printing it is necessary to extract a series of still frames--arranged here in order in a spiral (figure 2). The spiral includes two concatenated sequences: Australopithecus to H. erectus and H. erectus to H. sapiens. Conveniently the two time intervals separating these three landmark fossils are approximately the same, about 1.5m years. The three labelled landmark skulls constitute the data supplied to Morph. All the others are the computed intermediates (ignore H. futuris for the moment).

    Swirl your eye round the spiral looking for trends. It is broadly true that any trends you find before H. erectus continue after him. The film version shows this much more dramatically, so much so that it is hard, as you watch the film, to detect any discontinuity as you pass through H. erectus. We have made similar films for a number of probable evolutionary transitions in human ancestry. More often than not, trends show reversals of direction. The relatively smooth continuity around H. erectus is quite unusual.

    We can say that there has been a long, progressive--and by evolutionary standards very rapid--trend over the past 3m years of human skull evolution. I am speaking of progress in the value-neutral sense here. As it happens, anybody who thinks increased brain size has positive value can also claim this trend as value-laden progress too. This is because the dominant trend, flowing both before and after H. erectus, is the spectacular ballooning of the brain.

    What of the future? Can we extrapolate the trend from H. erectus through and beyond H. sapiens, and predict the skull shape of H. futuris 3m years hence? Only an orthogeneticist would take it seriously; but, for what it is worth, we have made an extrapolation with the aid of Morph, and it is appended at the end of the spiral diagram. It shows a continuation of the trend to inflate the balloon of the braincase; the chin continues to move forward and sharpen into a silly little goatee point, while the jaw itself looks too small to chew anything but baby pap. Indeed the whole cranium is quite reminiscent of a baby's skull. It was long ago suggested that human evolution is an example of "paedomorphosis": the retention of juvenile characteristics into adulthood. The adult human skull looks more like a baby chimp's than like an adult chimp's.

    Don't bank on H. futuris

    Is there any likelihood that something like this hypothetical large- brained H. futuris will evolve? I'd put very little money on it, one way or the other. Certainly the mere fact that brain inflation has been the dominant trend over the past 3m years says almost nothing about probable trends in the next 3m. Brains will continue to inflate only if natural selection continues to favour large-brained individuals. This means, when you come down to it, if large-brained individuals manage to have, on average, more children than small-brained ones.

    It is not unreasonable to assume that large brains go with intelligence, and that intelligence, in our wild ancestors, was associated with ability to survive, ability to attract mates or ability to outwit rivals. Not unreasonable--but both these clauses would find their critics. It is an article of passionate faith among "politically correct" biologists and anthropologists that brain size has no connection with intelligence; that intelligence has nothing to do with genes; and that genes are probably nasty fascist things anyway.

    Leaving this to one side, problems with the idea remain. In the days when most individuals died young, the main qualification for reproduction was survival into adulthood. But in our western civilisation few die young, most adults choose to have fewer children than they are physically and economically capable of, and it is by no means clear that people with the largest families are the most intelligent. Anybody viewing future human evolution from the perspective of advanced western civilisation is unlikely to make confident predictions about brain size continuing to evolve.

    In any case, all these ways of viewing the matter are far too short- term. Socially important phenomena such as contraception and education exert their influences over the timescale of human historians, over decades and centuries. Evolutionary trends--at least those that last long enough to deserve the title progressive--are so slow that they are all but totally insensitive to the vagaries of social and historical time. If we could assume that something like our advanced scientific civilisation was going to last for 1m, or even 100,000, years, it might be worth thinking about the undercurrents of natural-selection pressure in these civilised conditions. But the likelihood is that, in 100,000 years time, we shall either have reverted to wild barbarism, or else civilisation will have advanced beyond all recognition--into colonies in outer space, for instance. In either case, evolutionary extrapolations from present conditions are likely to be highly misleading.

    Evolutionists are usually pretty coy about predicting the future. Our species is a particularly hard one to predict because human culture, at least for the past few thousand years and speeding up all the time, changes in ways that mimic evolutionary change, only thousands to hundreds of thousands of times faster. This is most clearly seen when we look at technical hardware. It is almost a cliche to point out that the wheeled vehicle, the aeroplane, and the electronic computer, to say nothing of more frivolous examples such as dress fashions, evolve in ways strikingly reminiscent of biological evolution. My formal definitions of value- laden and value-neutral progress, although designed for fossil bones, can be applied, without modification, to cultural and technological trends.

    Prevailing skirt and hair lengths in western society are progressive--value-neutrally, because they are too trivial to be anything else--for short periods if at all. Viewed over the timescale of decades, the average lengths fritter up and down like yo-yos. Weapons improve (at what they are designed to do, which may be of positive or negative value depending on your point of view) consistently and progressively, at least partly to counter improvements in the weaponry of enemies. But mostly, like any other technology, they improve because new inventions build on earlier ones and inventors in any age benefit from the ideas, efforts and experience of their predecessors. This principle is most spectacularly demonstrated by the evolution of the digital computer. The late Christopher Evans, a psychologist and author, calculated that if the motor car had evolved as fast as the computer, and over the same time period, "Today you would be able to buy a Rolls-Royce for ?.35, it would do three million miles to the gallon, and it would deliver enough power to drive the QE2. And if you were interested in miniaturisation, you could place half a dozen of them on a pinhead."

    Science and the technology that it inspires can, of course, be used for backward ends. Continued trends in, say, aeroplane or computer speed, are undoubtedly progressive in a value-neutral sense. It would be easy to see them also as progressive in various value-laden senses. But such progress could also turn out to be laden with deeply negative value if the technologies fall into the hands of, say, religious fundamentalists bent on the destruction of rival sects who face a different point of the compass in order to pray, or some equally insufferable habit. Much may depend on whether the societies with the scientific know-how and the civilised values necessary to develop the technologies keep control of them; or whether they allow them to spread to educationally and scientifically backward societies which happen to have the money to buy them.

    Scientific and technological progress themselves are value-neutral. They are just very good at doing what they do. If you want to do selfish, greedy, intolerant and violent things, scientific technology will provide you with by far the most efficient way of doing so. But if you want to do good, to solve the world's problems, to progress in the best value-laden sense, once again, there is no better means to those ends than the scientific way. For good or ill, I expect scientific knowledge and technical invention to develop progressively over the next 150 years, and at an accelerating rate.

    Dawkins, Richard, The evolutionary future of man.., Vol. 328, Economist, 09-11-1993, pp 87.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    gravedancer,

    What if evolution was started by God?

    What if evolution was programed in,.. from the very start of the physical universe?
    What if through the research in quantum mechanics they find that the formula for evolution was introduced when space time began?

    What if survial of the fittest is not in the evolution equation(or just a very small), but instead other elemental forces in the evolution formula are what caused the variety of life forms we see today.
    What if the exploring human mind was designed to eventually understand not just the four dimensions but all 10 dimensions that some propose,.. exists?

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • dmouse
  • gravedancer
    gravedancer

    Dwilt,

    Lot's of "what if's", huh?

    Well I can give you my personal response to your "what if's":

    - Since the only thing left as far as theological explanation is something starting with "what if" or "maybe" I have made the conscious decision not to invest my time trying to live within the "rules" as interpereted by men of what they speculate some deity wants us to do.

    - IF there is a God why hasn't he shown himself clearly (by that i mean explained what this is all about and not left us running the gauntlet trying to figure out his hidden intentions)?

    - we know that evolution is true (even if an intelligent creationist conceds this in a small way). The encoding of DNA and the genome projects have confirmed that evolution is true.

    So did some deity trigger it all? Well obviously no scientist can ever say 100% that the answer is NO. But no scientist can say that there is 100% certainty that fairies exist on Saturn either.

    While some might think the theory of a supreme being more plausible than fairies their prrof needs to be spelled out.Don't protect them from scrutiny behind a screen of agnostic tolerance. Are the religious folk agnostic about Fairies on Saturn? Does that make them agnostic too? As Dawkins said "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    ""Please provide an answer to the following questions: "Evolution" in this context is the idea that natural, undirected processes are sufficient to account for the existence of all natural things.
    Something from nothing?

    The "Big Bang", the most widely accepted theory of the beginning of the universe, states that everything developed from a small dense cloud of subatomic particles and radiation which exploded, forming hydrogen (and some helium) gas. Where did this energy/matter come from? How reasonable is it to assume it came into being from nothing? And even if it did come into being, what would cause it to explode?
    We know from common experience that explosions are destructive and lead to disorder. How reasonable is it to assume that a "big bang" explosion produced the opposite effect - increasing "information", order and the formation of useful structures, such as stars and planets, and eventually people?

    Physical laws an accident?
    We know the universe is governed by several fundamental physical laws, such as electromagnetic forces, gravity, conservation of mass and energy, etc. The activities of our universe depend upon these principles like a computer program depends upon the existence of computer hardware with an instruction set. How reasonable is it to say that these great controlling principles developed by accident?
    Order from disorder?
    The Second Law of Thermodynamics may be the most verified law of science. It states that systems become more disordered over time, unless energy is supplied and directed to create order. Evolutionists says that the opposite has taken place - that order increased over time, without any directed energy. How can this be?
    ASIDE: Evolutionists commonly object that the Second Law applies to closed, or isolated systems, and that the Earth is certainly not a closed system (it gets lots of raw energy from the Sun, for example). However, all systems, whether open or closed, tend to deteriorate. For example, living organisms are open systems but they all decay and die. Also, the universe in total is a closed system. To say that the chaos of the big bang has transformed itself into the human brain with its 120 trillion connections is a clear violation of the Second Law.

    We should also point out that the availability of raw energy to a system is a necessary but far from sufficient condition for a local decrease in entropy to occur. Certainly the application of a blow torch to bicycle parts will not result in a bicycle being assembled - only the careful application of directed energy will, such as from the hands of a person following a plan. The presence of energy from the Sun does NOT solve the evolutionist's problem of how increasing order could occur on the Earth, contrary to the Second Law.

    Information from Randomness?
    Information theory states that "information" never arises out of randomness or chance events. Our human experience verifies this every day. How can the origin of the tremendous increase in information from simple organisms up to man be accounted for? Information is always introduced from the outside. It is impossible for natural processes to produce their own actual information, or meaning, which is what evolutionists claim has happened. Random typing might produce the string "dog", but it only means something to an intelligent observer who has applied a definition to this sequence of letters. The generation of information always requires intelligence, yet evolution claims that no intelligence was involved in the ultimate formation of a human being whose many systems contain vast amounts of information.
    Life from dead chemicals?
    Evolutionists claim that life formed from non-life (dead chemicals), so-called "abiogenesis", even though it is a biological law ("biogenesis") that life only comes from life. The probability of the simplest imaginable replicating system forming by itself from non-living chemicals has been calculated to be so very small as to be essentially zero - much less than one chance in the number of electron-sized particles that could fit in the entire visible universe! Given these odds, is it reasonable to believe that life formed itself?
    Complex DNA and RNA by chance?
    The continued existence (the reproduction) of a cell requires both DNA (the "plan") and RNA (the "copy mechanism"), both of which are tremendously complex. How reasonable is it to believe that these two co-dependent necessities came into existence by chance at exactly the same time?
    Life is complex.
    We know and appreciate the tremendous amount of intelligent design and planning that went into landing a man on the moon. Yet the complexity of this task pales in comparison to the complexity of even the simplest life form. How reasonable is it to believe that purely natural processes, with no designer, no intelligence, and no plan, produced a human being.
    Where are the transitional fossils?
    If evolution has taken place our museums should be overflowing with the skeletons of countless transitional forms. Yet after over one hundred years of intense searching only a small number of transitional candidates are touted as proof of evolution. If evolution has really taken place, where are the transitional forms? And why does the fossil record actually show all species first appearing fully formed, with most nearly identical to current instances of the species?
    ASIDE: Most of the examples touted by evolutionists concentrate on just one feature of the anatomy, like a particular bone or the skull. A true transitional fossil should be intermediate in many if not all aspects. The next time someone shows you how this bone changed over time, ask them about the rest of the creature too!

    Many evolutionists still like to believe in the "scarcity" of the fossil record. Yet simple statistics will show that given you have found a number of fossil instances of a creature, the chances that you have missed every one of its imagined predecessors is very small. Consider the trilobites for example. These fossils are so common you can buy one for under $20, yet no fossils of a predecessor have been found!.

    Could an intermediate even survive?
    Evolution requires the transition from one kind to another to be gradual. And don't forget that "natural selection" is supposed to retain those individuals which have developed an advantage of some sort. How could an animal intermediate between one kind and another even survive (and why would it ever be selected for), when it would not be well-suited to either its old environment or its new environment? Can you even imagine a possible sequence of small changes which takes a creature from one kind to another, all the while keeping it not only alive, but improved?
    ASIDE: Certainly a "light-sensitive spot" is better than no vision at all. But why would such a spot even develop? (evolutionists like to take this for granted). And even if it did develop, to believe that mutations of such a spot eventually brought about the tremendous complexities of the human eye strains all common sense and experience.

    Reproduction without reproduction?
    A main tenet of evolution is the idea that things develop by an (unguided) series of small changes, caused by mutations, which are "selected" for, keeping the "better" changes" over a very long period of time. How could the ability to reproduce evolve, without the ability to reproduce? Can you even imagine a theoretical scenario which would allow this to happen? And why would evolution produce two sexes, many times over? Asexual reproduction would seem to be more likely and efficient!
    ASIDE: To relegate the question of reproduction to "abiogenesis" does NOT address the problem. To assume existing, reproducing life for the principles of evolution to work on is a HUGE assumption which is seldom focused on in popular discussions.

    Plants without photosynthesis?
    The process of photosynthesis in plants is very complex. How could the first plant survive unless it already possessed this remarkable capability?
    How do you explain symbiotic relationships?
    There are many examples of plants and animals which have a "symbiotic" relationship (they need each other to survive). How can evolution explain this?
    It's no good unless it's complete.
    We know from everyday experience that an item is not generally useful until it is complete, whether it be a car, a cake, or a computer program. Why would natural selection start to make an eye, or an ear, or a wing (or anything else) when this item would not benefit the animal until it was completed?
    ASIDE: Note that even a "light-sensitive spot" or the simplest version of any feature is far from a "one-jump" change that is trivial to produce.

    Explain metamorphosis!
    How can evolution explain the metamorphosis of the butterfly? Once the caterpillar evolves into the "mass of jelly" (out of which the butterfly comes), wouldn't it appear to be "stuck"?
    It should be easy to show evolution.
    If evolution is the grand mechanism that has produced all natural things from a simple gas, surely this mechanism must be easily seen. It should be possible to prove its existence in a matter of weeks or days, if not hours. Yet scientists have been bombarding countless generations of fruit flies with radiation for several decades in order to show evolution in action and still have only produced ... more (deformed) fruit flies. How reasonable is it to believe that evolution is a fact when even the simplest of experiments has not been able to document it?
    ASIDE: The artificial creation of a new species is far too small of a change to prove that true "macro-evolution" is possible. A higher-order change, where the information content of the organism has been increased should be showable and is not. Developing a new species changes the existing information, but does not add new information, such as would be needed for a new organ, for example.

    Complex things require intelligent design folks!
    People are intelligent. If a team of engineers were to one day design a robot which could cross all types of terrain, could dig large holes, could carry several times its weight, found its own energy sources, could make more robots like itself, and was only 1/8 of an inch tall, we would marvel at this achievement. All of our life's experiences lead us to know that such a robot could never come about by accident, or assemble itself by chance, even if all of the parts were available laying next to each other. And we are certain beyond doubt that a canister of hydrogen gas, no matter how long we left it there or what type of raw energy we might apply to it, would never result in such a robot being produced. But we already have such a "robot" - it is called an "ant", and we squash them because they are "nothing" compared to people. And God made them, and he made us. Can there be any other explanation? """

    “We all fell down from the milky way, hanging around here for the judgement day, heaven only knows who’s in command.”- Jimmy Buffet

  • JanH
    JanH

    ThiChi,

    I think your time is better spent getting educated about evolution and science than copy & paste "Top 10 Strawmen Arguments Against Evolution" or whatever you've found on the Net.

    So cretinists still use the "thermodynamics" argument? Yikes.

    I bet you didn't even know that the "information theory" argument is just the thermodynamics argument restated.

    Free education material at http://www.talkorigins.org/

    - Jan
    --
    The believer is happy. The doubter is wise.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    JanH: Nice try......

    "Of all the statements that have been made with respect to theories on the origin of life, the statement that the Second Law of Thermodynamics poses no problem for an evolutionary origin of life is the most absurd... The operation of natural processes on which the Second Law of Thermodynamics is based is alone sufficient, therefore, to preclude the spontaneous evolutionary origin of the immense biological order required for the origin of life." (Duane Gish, Ph.D. in biochemistry from University of California at Berkeley) 10

    Emmett Williams, Ph.D:

    "It is probably no exaggeration to claim that the laws of thermodynamics represent some of the best science we have today. While the utterances in some fields (such as astronomy) seem to change almost daily, the science of thermodynamics has been noteworthy for its stability. In many decades of careful observations, not a single departure from any of these laws has ever been noted." 11

    If Evolution is true, there must be an extremely powerful force or mechanism at work in the cosmos that can steadily defeat the powerful, ultimate tendency toward "disarrangedness" brought by the 2nd Law. If such an important force or mechanism is in existence, it would seem it should be quite obvious to all scientists. Yet, the fact is, no such force of nature has been found.
    A number of scientists believe the 2nd Law, when truly understood, is enough to refute the theory of Evolution. In fact, it is one of the most important reasons why various Evolutionists have dropped their theory in favor of Creationism.

    open systems/closed systems: open thermodynamic systems exchange heat, light, or matter with their surroundings, closed systems do not. No outside energy flows into a closed system. Earth is an open system; it receives outside energy from the Sun.""

    “We all fell down from the milky way, hanging around here for the judgement day, heaven only knows who’s in command.”- Jimmy Buffet

  • JanH
    JanH

    ThiChi,

    I ran out of messages yd.

    You seem to not see that your statements contradict each other. Your creationist author, Gish, asserts that somehow the 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts ecvolution. The 2nd law of thermodynamics says that entrophy will always increase in a closed system (one where energy or mass does not leave). Now, obviously, the Earth is not a closed system; it receives vast amounts of energy from the Sun. Your creationist friends agree with that, in principle. Therefor, a local increase in a part of the universe is perfectly possible, or no life could exist at all. Such things happen around us and in us all the time. Case closed.

    It is interesting that you don't even see how your application of the 2nd law implies that life does not and cannot exist. It would absolutely prohibit God from creating life (at this point creationists must insist that God violates their cherished "law"). It would prohibit plants from growing, animals from living, and children from being born. Since you do agree, I hope, that this is wrong, then your application of thermodynamics is obviously faulty. Evolution is life, and life is evolution.

    See http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-meritt/complexity.html#thermo which answers this objection to evolution directly and briefly.

    For more detailed information about thermodynamics and evolution, read the two articles listed here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html

    - Jan
    --
    The believer is happy. The doubter is wise.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Thanks for the info Jan H, I will look into it!

    “We all fell down from the milky way, hanging around here for the judgement day, heaven only knows who’s in command.”- Jimmy Buffet

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Oh, the thermodynamic law misunderstanding that Creationist have is quite amusing...

    However, it's not as funny as the Creationist idea that the seas would be full of sediment if the Earth was as old as scientists say it is, and that's not as funny as the idea that the solar system must be far younger than scientists say, as if it was as old as they say, it would have had all the Interstellar pushed out by the solar wind.

    Both of these show amasing ignorance of basic science. Can any creationists say exactly why the above two creationist theories are a load of rubbish?

    No one who thinks we evolved can answer, only creationists!!

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

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