Rev 20- Fire and Brimstone(Sulphur) Forever-Bible Scholars please

by truthlover 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  truthlover

  When the devil and demons,and wild beast are cast into this lake of fire and brimstone, are they destroyed forever or are they being tortured forever? Does early language tell us exactly what is meant by this scripture?

  and if those who will not listen to God( who are supposed to be perfect by then) AFTER the 1000 years are declared wicked, and are thrown into this lake, does the SECOND DEATH indicate they being perfect before the judgement was passed, the sentence had to be worse that just the first death,?(where death ended all sin) and they too will be tortured forever?

  HELP!
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  Ding

  Rev. 20:10: "Then the Devil, who betrayed them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

  Whether "the lake of fire that burns with sulphur" is literal or symbolic, I don't see how this verse can be construed to teach that they will be annihilated and go out of existence.

  Granted, the lake of fire is also called "the second death," but how do we know what the Bible means by "the second death" except by considering all the verses in the same passage.

  Rev. 20:10 (quoted above) clearly seems to me to contradict the WTS' assertion that the second death = annihilation or nonexistence; how can someone be "tormented days and night forever and ever" if they no longer exist?
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  brotherdan

  Ding, I too have had issue with this. But I haven't really researched it much. But what about Hell being thrown into the lake of fire?
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  PSacramento

  If by Hell John meant Sheol or Hades then hell being thrown in the lkke of fire make sense in the context: no more "land of the dead".
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  Leolaia

  When the devil and demons,and wild beast are cast into this lake of fire and brimstone, are they destroyed forever or are they being tortured forever? Does early language tell us exactly what is meant by this scripture?

  The verb here means "torture, torment", i.e. the causing of anguish and pain, and not "destroy". A nominal form of the same word is used in Luke 16:23 to refer to the torment of the Rich Man in Hades.

  The idea here (eternal torture in fire in the sight of the righteous) is very close to what is found in 1 Enoch 27:2-3 and 4 Ezra 7:36.
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  Ding

  Brotherdan,

  Rev. 20:14 uses the word hades in Greek, so I think PSacramento is on the right track.

  "Hades" is the temporary abode of the dead (Luke 16); Hell is the final place of the unrighteous dead

  NIV and RSV translation of Rev. 20:14: "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

  NLT: "And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death-- the lake of fire."

  Of course, "death" and "hades" are not persons, and nothing in these verses says that they will be tormented.

  It does use the word torment for the devil, beast, and false prophet, as well as those whose names were not recorded in the book of life.

  Many years ago, Randy Watters did a study of this and published various views of it; he may still have that resource available.
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  brotherdan

  I thought "Sheol" was the grave and "Hades" was hell? And I thought that they were both different from the "Lake of Fire".
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  PSacramento

  Depending on who the audience was, it seems the writers of the NT letters and gospels would use Sheol ( sometimes Ghenna) and Hades in a "interchanable" way, Hades for the gentiles and greek educated and Sheol for the Jews.

  Both basically meant the same thing, the abode of the dead and they were "divided" into the parts for the "good dead" and the "bad dead".
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  Leolaia

  Of course, "death" and "hades" are not persons

  However they are personified elsewhere in Revelation. In 3:18 Jesus says he holds the "keys of Death and of Hades" just as he holds "the key of David" a few verses earlier (3:7), and there is a Greco-Roman mythological context here: Pluto (= Hades) was described as holding the keys to the gates of Hades (Pausanius, Descriptio 5.20.3), Hades was both the name of the underworld and the god presiding over it, and in Asia Minor at least the goddess Hekate was regarded as the keybearer to the underworld. In 6:8 "Death and Hades" are personified as the fourth horseman and the one following him. In Jewish literature of the time, Death and Hades are either personified or referred to as the angel responsible for collecting the souls of the dead (cf. Testament of Abraham 16-20 [Recension A], Sibylline Oracle 3.393, 480, Josephus, Bellum Judaicum 1.596, 3 Baruch 4:6; cf. Melito of Sardis, Peri Pascha 22, 55, 101), and the OT also personifies Death and Sheol which may draw opaquely on the Canaanite god of death Mot (cf. Job 18:13, Proverbs 13:14, Isaiah 25:8, 15, 18, Jeremiah 9:21, Hosea 13:14, Habakkuk 2:5). It is within the language of apocalyse to stretch a visionary scheme as involving personified entities; that one instance does not override the eschatological scenario (here, the concept of eternal torture of the dead or the resurrected) widely found elsewhere in both apocalyptic and non-apocalyptic texts.
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  truthlover

  Ding,Dan, PS and Leo --

  thanks so much for your insights -- a great help

  at least this gives me some ammo as I was stuck!

  TL