What Happens If Members Read This Site? (And Other Questions)

by Stargater 5 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Stargater

  First, I read an account that says members are often baptized more than once if they feel so disposed. In conventional Christianity, partaking of the bread and wine is done in rememberance of their baptism. One is symbolic of death and renewal; the other is done to remember the body and blood of the Savior. The notion that there are two classes is fiction, and all are expected to partake of the bread and wine as a rememberance of the Lord's defeat of death in the Atonement.

  We discuss doctrines of the Witnesses here, but apparently the Outfit...er...Organization ("Outfit" is what Sam Giancana called the Chicago Mob) is critical of members discussing doctrine outside of sanctioned outlets. To most Christians this is absolutely shocking, the extent of which J.W.s can't even fathom. Communism is tame compared to what I've read in just the last two weeks about the influence of the Outfit...er...Organization. That anyone can exert that much influence on a person outside of Jonestown is amazing in this day and time. I've thought to myself, "Someone ought to write a book about it!" It explains a lot.

  When I had these guys in my home, I noticed that they had no interest at all in the exchange of ideas. It was like, "Jehovah wants us to be good. Question: What does Jehovah want us to be?" Or..."Jesus clearly was nailed to a torture stake. Question: What was Jesus clearly nailed to?" There are no A, B, or C answers. It's just A. When I questioned my tormentors, they said they would write down my questions. They seemed ill prepared to answer even basic questions.

  Speaking of questions, I have a few of my own:

  • So what kind of records does the church keep and are they shredded when someone is disfellowshipped or are the people still considered members? Do they need to be rebaptized? Are records kept for rebaptisms?
  • If I am a father...do I baptize my children or is that something the elders do?
  • In the New Testament, baptized members had the Holy Spirit conferred upon them by the laying on of hands. Is this done in the Organization?
  • If a person is turned in by a family member for reading this website, can that person be disfellowshipped? Are they warned first?
  • If a person is disfellowshipped, do their family members shun them? What is shunning like?

  Just curious. Please feel free to rant, set me straight or quote.
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  wobble

  BTTT
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  DanaBug

  Hi, stargater. Good questions!

  JWs have an answer for everything and it doesn't concern them much if that answer actually makes any sense. They're simply content to have the answer.

  So what kind of records does the church keep and are they shredded when someone is disfellowshipped or are the people still considered members? Do they need to be rebaptized? Are records kept for rebaptisms?

  Every publisher has a publisher card on file that has info like your name, baptism date, member of the great crowd or anointed. They keep records that you turn in monthly about your door to door work. How much time you spent, number of magazines and publications placed, return visits made. They also keep records of your applications to auxiliary or regular pioneer. And if you get df'd there's a record of that too. And no, they're not shredded. You don't have to be rebaptized after getting reinstated.

  If I am a father...do I baptize my children or is that something the elders do?

  Baptisms are done at assemblies or conventions. Brothers are assigned to do the baptizing.

  In the New Testament, baptized members had the Holy Spirit conferred upon them by the laying on of hands. Is this done in the Organization?

  There's no laying on of the hands. JWs have a totally different concept of holy spirit than other Christians do. I'll leave that to a Christian to explain.

  If a person is turned in by a family member for reading this website, can that person be disfellowshipped? Are they warned first?

  That really depends on your body of elders and your reputation in the congregation. Some have been df'd for being here. You're usually contacted by the elders first to discuss the charges and then it's decided if there should be a judicial committee or not. There is a scripture about there having to be two witnesses to an offense but sometimes that's ignored.

  If a person is disfellowshipped, do their family members shun them? What is shunning like?

  This too depends on the family. Some families don't shun, some do. The direction from the Org is to shun except in cases of necessary family business, since it's "loving" and will help the df'd person want to come back. My family shuns me and my sister. It's a bit like being dead but knowing you are, if that makes any sense. It's so hard to describe. My parents weren't at the birth of my daughter or my sister's two kids or my sister's wedding (I actually walked her down the aisle). But when my grandmother was dying, my sister and I went down to her and my grandfather's house and stayed there with my JW mother and her df'd brother and sister during that; that was necessary family business. I haven't talked to one of my brothers in 6 years or any of my extended family that are in. It's like I don't exist and they carry on without a backwards glance.
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  elderelite

  As a current elder i can and will answer all of thise questions because... Well its what i do :-)

  1)records are kept regarding your specific sin that led to df'ing as well as all handwritten notes from the judicial committe that decided to df you. They are supoosed to be sealed but this is the honor system and in many comgregstions is not followed. The branch office also keeps these records and refers to them often in correspondance with the local congregation. In the case of a male who is reinstated and wants to be appointed to a posotion of responsiblity after having been df and reinstated, the branch office will ask specific questions regarding the offense that caused the original df'ing and how the man has responded since being reinstated. Accordig to ray franz these branch records are kept even afrerthe death of a person. Given what i have seen in correspondance to my own local congregation i believe records are indeed kept indefinatly. Offical org policy is that rebaptism is NOT scriptural and is not carried out. No records are kept on baptisums per say. Each pub has a record card kept localy and that card reflects date of baptisim. With more and more records being kept online thos info IS being reported to the branch now but still relies on local brothers to report.

  2) layin on of hands is not practised. This is bieved by the org to have been "done away with" based on 1corn chapter 13

  3) children are NOT baptised by parents. Only the orgs representaives are authorized to determine eligiblity for and then to baptize

  4)if turned in for reading for this web site, two elders would be desig ated to have a formall meeti g with the publisher in question. The meeting would be to determine of a dfin offense had occured, most likly "appostacy". This would be related to determinkng is the person reading this website still believed in whole everything that the governing body of jehovahs witnesses teaches at the time (its all subject to change). If they no longer believed they would be df'd.. Sorry that stands for "disfellowshipped" or shunned

  5) if df'd yes family would be expected to shun. This is being totally ignored by all who are jw's family or not. If a jw, family or not, associates with a df person, they are subject to shunning themselves
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  Mad Sweeney

  Speaking of questions, I have a few of my own:

  • So what kind of records does the church keep and are they shredded when someone is disfellowshipped or are the people still considered members? Do they need to be rebaptized? Are records kept for rebaptisms?

  A form is filled out (duplicate or triplicate) A copy is kept in the congregation file and a copy is sent to the branch office. Other copies? I don't know. But your records are not destroyed. They're kept to hold against you in the future. You are not rebaptized when you return. The only people allowed rebaptism are those who were "sinning" at the time of their baptism, rendering it invalid.

  • If I am a father...do I baptize my children or is that something the elders do?

  Baptisms are done at assemblies/conventions almost exclusively. If you want to be baptized this week, too bad. You have to wait until the next assembly. They come around every four months, give or take.

  • In the New Testament, baptized members had the Holy Spirit conferred upon them by the laying on of hands. Is this done in the Organization?

  No. No Jehovah's Witness has holy spirit (note the lack of "the" and the lack of capital letters) conferred upon them by other members. Very few have holy spirit conferred upon them at all. The doctrine is that only 144,000 Christians in all of history will ever have holy spirit conferred upon them, and most of them are considered to have already lived and died.

  • If a person is turned in by a family member for reading this website, can that person be disfellowshipped? Are they warned first?

  Yes they can. A person is almost always warned first, but the warning is sometimes really short notice. And you aren't really disfellowshipped for reading the site, you're disfellowshipped for going into the judicial committee meeting with a brazen attitude (to be judged exclusively by them). They bring you in front of a committee of three elders who ask you questions about what you've done and how you feel about it. If you can convince them you didn't realize it was wrong and that you are really sorry to find out that it is and that you'll never do it again, you're off the hook. If you can't convince them, you're disfellowshipped. Sometimes there is a middle ground - private or public reproof. This is when you know you've done wrong but they believe you're sorry and won't do it again.

  • If a person is disfellowshipped, do their family members shun them? What is shunning like?

  The threat of shunning is a disgusting form of emotional blackmail. In practice it can be excruciatingly painful. What makes JW shunning so horrible is that for all the years you are a member you are isolated from non-JW friendships. When disfellowshipped, you are shunned from all JWs. So now who do you have? Nobody. It's like solitary confinement. They call it "a loving arrangement from Jehovah" because that's what they're programmed to call it, but I've never known anyone who is comfortable with it. Some execute it with relish but even these seem somewhat disturbed as they are overly judgmental - another trait inculcated in JWs. And yes, often family members shun them. Sometimes close family will not be as strict about it. It varies. I'm not DFd but I have family members who shun me completely and tell the rest of the family they should do the same. I have other family members who I am as close to as ever. It's a crap shoot.

  The above answers are my opinions based on personal observations and experiences.
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  Mad Sweeney

  There you go. At the mouths of three witnesses, so to speak.