How did we get HERE from way back THERE?

by Terry 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    Let's just say, for the sake of the discussion, that Jesus never made any prophetic statements at all. Okay?

    His disciples and apostles had the highest possible opinion of him because of the way he lived, spoke, treated people, etc.

    His followers were indoctrinated from birth (as Jews) to expect that, someday, a righteous political and religious leader (MESSIAH) would appear.

    They were eager for this Messiah to arrive. They were eager for Jesus to be that leader.

    His followers made the "leap of faith" and BELIEVED: Jesus was that MESSIAH. (Jesus, reportedly, played games with this identification. "Who do YOU say I am?")

    Are you following this?

    Okay, next step...

    The apostles and disciples created expectations about Jesus' status within their own community.

    They began stirring up hope and supporting that expectation. Word got out.

    Established religious leaders saw a disaster in this: the Romans would not tolerate a movement which threatened PAX ROMANA.

    At the same time the Jesus Movement was picking up momentum, the radical Sicarii (rebel jews) were fomenting rebellion against Rome.

    When the pot boiled over Jesus was arrested, judged and executed. Bim, Bam, Boom! Later, the center of worship was destroyed. Bang!

    It was a WTF moment!

    Okay?

    Here is where the rubber meets the road. The disciples and apostles were like a jilted bride on her wedding day when the groom vanishes.

    WHY is this happening to me? What went wrong? How can I understand? THERE MUST BE AN EXPLANATION (that fits my belief.)

    The need to make sense of their shattered expectations was overwhelming to them.

    Brainstorming. Hypothesis. Guesswork.

    At some point, after Jerusalem itself was obliterated by the Roman armies, somebody started a rumor or stated a speculation AS FACT.

    It answered THE question on everybody's mind: IF JESUS was the MESSIAH, why didn't he warn us?

    The rumor helped people MAKE SENSE of the events that had devasted the existing belief system and JOINED the two events

    into a REASONABLE explanation. "Jesus MUST HAVE warned us and we didn't get it!"

    What possible explanation could account for it?

    This: JESUS HAD PREDICTED EVERYTHING IN ADVANCE--but--we just didn't UNDERSTAND at the time what he was telling us!

    The people who had listened to Jesus teach and who probably did NOT "get it" in the first place began retro-fitting certain statements inside

    their mind. "You know, when our Lord said "thus and so" he was probably trying to warn us..."

    No doubt, Jesus did say something. Something. But, not prophecy. More like a puzzling saying you had to think about.

    One of those "..the sound of one hand clapping..." things.

    Jesus loved injecting parables and illustrations into his teaching. Mysterious and elusive.

    You could go away and think about it. Puzzle over it. Try to solve it on your own. It gave his teaching some real buzz.

    After the chaos of the death of Jesus and the destruction of the Temple......an explanation rose to the surface.

    JESUS WAS A PROPHET who FORETOLD all this would happen IN OUR GENERATION.

    Before any Gospel biographies were written down....along comes a Persecutor of Christians, Saul/Paul.

    He sets about making a lesson of this idea: JESUS KNEW and the whole thing was PLANNED from the very BEGINNING!

    wOW. wow WOW!

    The story got out. It was exciting. It explained everything....

    PLUS......

    It was probably a shadow of things yet to come! yeah...that's the ticket....there is a GREATER fulfillment to come!

    PRESTO! Jesus is actually going to RETURN and finish the job as Messiah.

    So....maybe he was more than a human.

    Maybe....just maybe.....he was....superhuman....or (gasp) DIVINE!!

    Anyway.....you get the point.

    Necessity is the mother of invention.

  • wobble
    wobble

    The way I see it, it is exactly as you say Terry.

    After the debacle of 70CE the Jewish nation needed something to pull it together, so "Mathew" wrote his political tract which later was called a Gospel.

    This was cobbled together some time in the mid eighties perhaps, with the aim of keeping the nation alive by making the cult of Christ a rallying point. Traditional Judaism had lost out to the Roman might, but a new cult that already had proved attractive to gentiles because of the impetus Paul gave it amongst them, would ensure that the Jewish race would not totally disappear.

    The Jews too, would be able to claim a superiority over gentiles, because the messiah had come from their nation.

    I should imagine "Mathew" envisioned a religion that had Jews as a Governing Body, and gentile converts as "other sheep".

  • Terry
    Terry

    Anyway you slice it the mind boggles at the possibilities!

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    Some historians have noted the similarities between the life and teachings of Jesus and those of the Cynics. Some scholars have argued that the Q document, the hypothetical common source for the gospels of Matthew and Luke, has strong similarities with the teachings of the Cynics. [67] [68] Scholars on the quest for the historical Jesus, such as Burton L. Mack and John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar, have argued that 1st century CE Galilee was a world in which Hellenistic ideas collided with Jewish thought and traditions. The city of Gadara, only a day's walk from Nazareth, was particularly notable as a center of Cynic philosophy, [69] and Mack has described Jesus as a "rather normal Cynic-type figure." [70] For Crossan, Jesus was more like a Cynic sage from an Hellenistic Jewish tradition than either a Christ who would die as a substitute for sinners or a Messiah who wanted to establish an independent Jewish state of Israel. [71] Other scholars doubt that Jesus was deeply influenced by the Cynics, and see the Jewish prophetic tradition as of much greater importance. [72]

    I subscribe to the theory that Jesus was a Cynic.

  • Terry
    Terry

    There have been enough definite statements made about what to expect from christianity to PROVE or DISPROVE the veracity.

    Jesus was expected to return quickly even BEFORE the apostles had finished making a circuit of all the neighboring cities preaching.

    The work was "urgent".

    The Destruction of Jerusalem wiped out institutionalized Judaism.

    Every believer WAITED.

    They died waiting!

    1.Believe

    2.Preach urgently the End is Near

    3.Die waiting

    Hop on board and join the fun!

  • poppers
    poppers

    Another in a long list of very interesting posts from Terry. Thanks, it's always a pleasure to read you.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Isn't it fascinating how bad predictions don't bother anybody beyond making them laugh and shrug?

    JW's especially simply go into denial.

    They'll argue with you. "The Society never said that."

    Perfectly willing to blame themselves.

    Just weird.

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    "Jesus MUST HAVE warned us and we didn't get it!"

    The WT applied this same principal to their belief about the "end" in 1914:

    "Jesus MUST HAVE returned and we couldn't see it!"

  • Terry
    Terry

    "...and EVERY EYE shall see Him..." was so easily brushed aside, too!

    Whenever a definite statement needs to be eliminated all you have to do is "spiritualize" it into a mere poetic expression.

    "With the eyes of knowledge"......

    Neat trick.

  • unshackled
    unshackled

    The OP is searing logic, Terry. In some shape or form that is likely what went down.

    Whenever a definite statement needs to be eliminated all you have to do is "spiritualize" it into a mere poetic expression.

    Fortunately, that never happens on this forum.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit