Gospel of Thomas?

by Chariklo 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Chariklo

  I have a question, not really directly related to JW's but maybe something will come from a discussion, sonce Gnosticism and non-canonical texts have been discussed recently.

  Through my mind today has been running the text "Cleave the wood and I am there." It was first sent me nearly thirty years ago on a card, by a nun. I didn't know where it came from, but soon afterwards I heard of the Gospel of Thomas and somehow thought it came from there...maybe I read it, don't remember.

  Anyway, this evening, not knowing why this particular text should be in my mind I decided to do a bit of online research. I found the exact phrase in a hymn

  http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/t/t510.html

  but also a very closely similar text does seem to be in the Gospel of Thomas.

  http://www.kunar.com/Gospel%20of%20Thomas/Collected%20Commentary%20on%20the%20Gospel%20of%20Thomas%2077.htm

  "Jesus said: I am the light that is above them all. I am the all; the all came forth from me, and the all attained to me. Cleave a (piece of) wood; I am there. Raise up a stone, and you will find me there."

  There are different translations and renderings on that page.

  Now, here's the oddity.I noticed that the hymn was written in 1909. But the Gospel of Thomas was discovered at Nag Hammadi in 1945. This seems very weird.

  Can anyone resolve the anomaly?
• 

  transhuman68

  Fragments of the Gospel of Thomas were found earlier than those at Nag Hammadi. Maybe the hymn was a reference to something written on one of those fragments? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.Oxy.
• 

  Shanagirl

  Introduction

  There is a growing consensus among scholars that the Gospel of Thomas – discovered over a half century ago in the Egyptian desert – dates to the very beginnings of the Christian era and may well have taken first form before any of the four traditional canonical Gospels. During the first few decades after its discovery several voices representing established orthodox biases argued that the Gospel of Thomas (abbreviated, GTh) was a late-second or third century Gnostic forgery. Scholars currently involved in Thomas studies now largely reject that view, though such arguments will still be heard from orthodox apologists and are encountered in some of the earlier publications about Thomas.

  Today most students would agree that the Thomas Gospel has opened a new perspective on the first voice of the Christian tradition. Recent studies centered on GTh have led to a stark reappraisal of the forces and events forming "orthodoxy" during the second and third centuries. But more importantly, the Gospel of Thomas is awakening interest in a forgotten spiritual legacy of Christian culture. The incipit (or "beginning words") of Thomas invite each of us "who has ears to hear" to join in a unique quest:

  These are the hidden words that the living Jesus spoke,
  and that Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down. And He said:
  "Whoever finds the meaning of these words will not taste death."

  The Gospel of Thomas Collection -- The Gnostic Society Library Click here: Nag Hammadi Library Alphabetical Index
• 

  Chariklo

  It's very interesting, isn't it? And so, transhuman68, is that link you sent us to

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.Oxy

  "The Oxyrhynchus Papyri collection contains around twenty manuscripts of New Testament apocrypha, works from the early Christian period that presented themselves as biblical books, but were not eventually received as such by the orthodoxy. These works found at Oxyrhynchus include the gospels of Thomas, Mary, Peter, James, The Shepherd of Hermas, and the Didache. Among this collection are also a few manuscripts of unknown gospels. The three manuscripts of Thomas represent the only known Greek manuscripts of this work; the only other surviving manuscript of Thomas is a nearly complete Coptic manuscript from the Nag Hammadi find. [ 5 ] P. Oxy. 4706, a manuscript of The Shepherd of Hermas, is notable because two sections believed by scholars to have been often circulated independently, Visions and Commandments, were found on the same roll. [ 6 ]"

  The Wikipedia page makes it very clear that these Oxyrhynchus discoveries form a collection of great learning, from a period covering the first six centuries AD. They include the great mathematicians and philosophers, Euclid's geometry, Greek plays, poems...it's an academic archive covering all disciplines. A real library. It even includes some homilies of the time.

  It was the dominant bishops who decided which manuscripts should form what became the Bible. Exactly why they were chosen and who chose them must be relevant.

  That Henry van Dyk hymn used phrases obviously from the Gospel of Thomas is especially interesting as that hymn, "They who tread the path of labour" is in a Lutheran hymnal.
• 

  Shanagirl

  In the early Christianity there were two mainstreams: the Paulinian and the Gnostic Christians. Saul had pursued Christians until he converted and became Paul. The year of his conversion is estimated to be between 33 and 35. The Paulinian Christianity began to develop only after that. Who were the Christians that Paul pursued? They will especially have been the so called Christian Jews. This concept refers to groups among the earliest Christianity, to which belonged Jews who still adhered to Jewish customs - like Jesus and his disciples themselves (because they had to assimilate with the local culture after all, despite their divergent beliefs).
  
  
  Out of these Christian Jews arose the movement of the Gnostic Christians. Because of his views, Paul came into a conflict with this original Christianity.
  
  
  Hence the Paulinian Christianity didn’t arise out of the original Christianity, and with Paul, who hadn’t known Jesus himself, an obviously modified Christianity began, that distanced itself from the Christianity close to Jesus that was in the beginning. For the Gnostics, the creator of this world wasn’t the true prime creator, but a demiurg, a “craftsman”, a fallen angel, who also has an evil side.
  
  
  While the real God, the true prime creator (who Jesus calls “father”) is unrestrictedly good, an imperfect demiurg created an imperfect world.
• 

  Chariklo

  Thanks Shanagirl.

  This is new to me.

  For the Gnostics, the creator of this world wasn’t the true prime creator, but a demiurg, a “craftsman”, a fallen angel, who also has an evil side.

  How do we know this? Where do we find it?
• 

  Shanagirl

  The Gnostic Christians' books are below in the Nag Hammadi Library alphapbietical indelx

  Click here: Nag Hammadi Library Alphabetical Index It has been shown that the Gnostics identified this imperfect demiurg-“god” with the god of the Old Testament, who they also called Yaldabaoth, who wants to keep humans in a state of ignorance in a material world and who punishes their attempts to achieve knowledge and insight (to “eat from the tree of knowledge”.
  
  The demiurg is a lesser god who wants to be the only one.
  
  
  

  The text The Apokryphon of John (or The Secret Book of John) states:
  
  “He is impious in his madness, she who dwells in him. For he said, ‘I am God and no other god exists except me’, since he is ignorant of the place from which his strength had come” .
  
  (Cf. Ex 20:23 and Deut 5:7)
  
  Could this be the explanation of all the abominable cruelties, which after all are literally described in the Old Testament?
  
  
  
  
• 

  Band on the Run

  Gnosticism was a philosophy that ran through Judaism, Christianity. I believe it may have been present in what we term pagan works. The believers would call such religion orthodoxy and Christianity a perversion.

  I haven't read any Jewish Gnostics. They must be available online. My prof during college was a Gnostic expert. Her main point was that social forces shaped what became orthodox. She said Gnosticism is not a great mass religion on several levels. The focus on mysticism and secret knwoledge means only a few initiates know what is happening. It does not offer universal salvation. The first generation in the desert would be very committed. Their children not as likely.

  Paul's views defined Christianity. I am interested in Middle Eastern and Indian churches founded by other apostles, such as Thomas. It would be interesting to compare theiri beliefs with Roman ones. As my priest pointed out during Lent, we tend to know the amalgamation that society presents. After several courses, it remains a mish mash in my mind.

  All this is relevant to me when encountering the Witness orthodoxy. Jesus did not form a church. His followers did. Faith was preserved despite wide diversity of belief. If Jesus wanted to have set doctrines and such mind boggling concept as whether he wore a beard, Jesus would have presented creeds for belief. He refused to do so, even when pressed. Parables aren't clear definitions. His answers can seem coy, puzzling, and evasive. No wonder the apostles were clueless. It seems that the postEaster experience of the Holy Spirit supplied the teachings more than Jesus himself. None of the gospels is a straight narrative.

  If you try to explain this to a Witness, all they do is run. And run fast. I suppose it is my curiosity about everything that led me out of the Witnesses.

  Does anyone know how to access Indian or Chaldean, Assyrian Christianity beyond wikipedia. Seminaries seem to concentrate on Western thought. Someone very important to me used to spend hours contrasting Eastern and Western belief. Eastern Orthodox is not so hard to find.
• 

  Chariklo

  Hey, Band, are you a fellow Catholic? (to which I returned after coming to my senses...but thinking lighltly and freely because I don't think any particular body or even religion necessarily has a monopoly on the truth.)

  Is there any link between Gnosticism and Hermeticism? i.e hermetic knowledge?