Back from my trip home.

by Tuber 7 Replies latest jw friends

Tuber

I am back from my trip home.

I have brought back with me three pieces of JW lit given to me by my stepmother: bible teach, was life created & the origin of life.

I didn't get much time to discuss religion with my stepmother, as I was pretty busy running around catching up with people.

A brief rundown:

Found out that my stepmother has, in fact, been baptised for over a year.

Found out that my little sisters are going to "bible study" a few times a week after school- I assume this is like JW sunday school?

Found out my father is attending meetings and socialising with people from the congregation.

I brought up the JW thing with my stepmother's parents (for any relevance it may have, I have known them for so long, and since i was so young, that I think of them as my own grandparents- same is true for my whole step-family). They seemed relieved that I brought it up, and it turns out that they are as concerned as I am.

So, if nothing else, it's nice to know that I have some allies. We agreed to keep in contact about this matter, and I think that my grandparents are likely not going to question my stepmother about her beliefs and have long discussions about it with her- but likely they will indeed drop comments from time to time. We are comparing notes, but are making sure we don't take on the appearance of being a co-ordinated front- trying to avoid raising any red flags.

When she handed me TOL and WLC, she mentioned that atheists "take to the message" a lot more readily than people who already have a faith, and all the indoctrination that comes with it (the irony of this was so very rich).

I think what she means is that people who have no particular belief one way or the other, the "undecided" are easier to sway than those who believe something different, i.e. primarily those of other christian faiths.

I don't think she realises just how much of a die hard athiest I actually am. I have mentioned this in the other thread, but there are two main types of athiests (generalising here): soft atheists, who lack a belief in god, and hard atheists, who have a belief that there is no god.

I'm of the hard school, convinced by scientific evidence and any number of other things that there is no god. So when she brought out the two pamphlets (TOL and WLC), and told me that they are factual, backed by science, and even have bibliographies that list all their sources, I knew, before even turning a page, that they promised to be full of misquotes, fallacies and plain old bad science.

They certainly delivered, and the weighed wanting PDF saved me a hell of a lot of research time.

As mentioned in the other thread, when I brought up the way TOL conflates evolution with abiogenisis, my stepmother replied that this was because "many people aren't as well educated as you, so the governing body is speaking to them on their level".

I was a bit surprised when she just name dropped the GB, but I didn't blink an eye, since I don't want to give away just how much research I have actually done.

I guess you could say I'm currently regrouping, collecting my thoughts, and preparing for another offensive.

From what I have gathered from our brief conversations, combined with my knowledge of her in general, it seems that she wanted to get into christianity, but didn't like teachings of hellfire, the use of the bible to justify murder etc. She also seemed to have a feeling that the world is going to shit- unfortunately, this then developed in her a confirmation bias- any time she saw anything in the news with a negative slant, it confirmed her suspicions.

I think the JWs' neutrality appealed to her, and their teaching that the world is coming to an end neatly dovetailed into her own "world going to shit" mentality. This, combined with the fact they seemed to have an answer for every question she could possibly come up with, I think, is what drew her in.

I am considering a number of ways to approach this.

I am going to try and draw away from the issue we had been discussing, about the name Jehovah vs Yahweh/ Lord etc.

I think going through TOL or WLC with her and pointing out all the bad science in them, and the misquotes, might be a decent strategy.

I could use this to lead into the question, how can an organisation that tells barefaced lies be god's organisation?

This of course would mean that I would have to keep her on topic, and prevent her from veering off onto other topics, which I think will be a challenge.

I like this approach as the pamphlets themselves invite research (knowing a JW would consider just reading the pamphlet itself as "research"). This will allow me to defend my motives for researching quotes and science etc, rather than just coming across as a "faultfinder". Also, and I hate to use this word about a loved one, but I really can't think of any other way of putting it, "smugness" with which she pointed out the bibliographies etc makes me think that the way JWs (blatantly mis)quote academic works to make their arguments appear legitimate is something she values, and putting a dent in this may help put a crack in her faith.

The other approach would be to go through bible teach with her. Since it mentions 1914 and a few other juicey topics, this too could be used to bring up doubts, but I worry that this approach might be likely to degrade into a session of scripture ping-pong, and and relies on a lot of "interpretations" which she can no doubt argue for with all her JW resources.

Thoughts?
Tuber

Ah, forgot to mention, she also told me about an incident when one of my sisters got in a disagreement with the chaplain at school, over the trinity.

Apparently my stepmother made an appointment with the chaplain, made them admit they couldn't explain the trinity, and drove them to quit their job.

So, something tells me that the trinity may be something she feels strongly about.
jamiebowers

Please read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan before having any conversations with your step-mom.
Retrovirus

Hi Tuber!
Are you close to your little sisters? When you visit, make time for them, take them out and exchange email addresses or phone numbers.
However it goes with you stepmother, they will need an alternative viewpoint and someone "outside" they can trust. Or turn to, if ever they get baptised and then decide to leave. Remember less than half the born-in young people stick with it these days.
Retro
InterestedOne

Tuber wrote:
she mentioned that atheists "take to the message" a lot more readily than people who already have a faith
My JW friend says the same thing! I wonder if this is coincidence or another example of the way JW's talk the same.
I think going through TOL or WLC with her and pointing out all the bad science in them, and the misquotes, might be a decent strategy.
I could use this to lead into the question, how can an organisation that tells barefaced lies be god's organisation?
I like this approach as the pamphlets themselves invite research (knowing a JW would consider just reading the pamphlet itself as "research"). This will allow me to defend my motives for researching quotes and science etc, rather than just coming across as a "faultfinder".
You are wise to be careful about her writing you off as a "faultfinder." They are quick to do this. Be careful how you "point out" things to her. This is where Black Sheep's advice is relevant. He often says "don't tell them anything." They are programmed to not respond well to you telling them anything. Still, I agree with your reasoning that the nature of those pamphlets invites research. If you are going to "point out" things to her, try to figure out a way to do it where she discovers the truth for herself. As an example, I found a sentence in one of their books that I'm pretty sure is false. I am going to address it with an elder in my JW friend's congregation - btw she won't really talk to me anymore and says I should direct my questions to the elders. When I raise it with the elder, I am not going to "tell" him the sentence is false. Instead, I am going to say that the sentence didn't match what I had always heard throughout my life, and could he please tell me if the sentence is true or false. I'm hoping he will look into it and be obligated to either admit that it is false or have to make up some explanation that he will know deep down is just reaching.
Black Sheep

This of course would mean that I would have to keep her on topic, and prevent her from veering off onto other topics, which I think will be a challenge.
Take up that challenge.
Look any any post on this forum about a conversation with a Dub that has gone haywire, and the Dub has had control of the subject.
Tuber

Sheep, are you at all familiar with either of the two pamphlets- particularly TOL?

As you can see from above, I pointed out that evolution and abiogenisis are not the same thing, and she immediately rebuffed me with the "talking to them on their level" line.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to proceed with that particular pamphlet.

The current strategy I'm playing with in my head is to abandon the "name of god" question, perhaps going with the angle, "I don't believe in god, so his name doesn't, at the end of the day, matter to me awfully much... first I'd like to know a little more about god, to decide if there is enough evidence to believe in him".

She knows I'm aware of their practise of disfellowshipping members, and that it can only be done to the baptised, so it's obvious I know something about the dub cult, but she knows that even as an atheist, I find religion fascinating, and know bits and pieces about a great deal of religions.

I don't think I am in the position to say "JWs do this, do you think this is what god's organisation would do?"... at least, not in those words and not without a rather large preamble.

Working only from the literature she gave me (feigning interest), combined with secular research, and the occasional "other parts of christianity say this... what does your cult have to say about it?" is perhaps my best hope.

Also- she mentioned to me that there were several times leading up to her baptism where she disagreed with the dubs- not sure if this was doctrine, interpretation of the bible or what exactly, but it was certainly interesting to hear her say that.

I'd love to find out what these disagreements were about, but not sure about the best way to do it.
Tuber

*bump*

Back from my trip home.

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