Poker versus other games of "chance" - how does that affect your thinking?

by Dogpatch 5 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    Assuming that you think at all, or are part-time thinkers like me - you may find this impressive. Not from the article itself, but by paradigms, patterns, memetic movements and your horoscope. (LOL)

    from The Economist, one of my favorite rags.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2011/10/luck-and-skill-poker?fsrc=nlw%7Cnewe%7C10-10-2011%7Cnew_on_the_economist

    IN THE New York Times on October 9th, Chad Hills, a gambling analyst for Focus on the Family—a position roughly comparable to monitoring Satanic churches for the Vatican—was quoted disparaging the argument that poker is a game of skill rather than chance, because nobody “can tell you what the next card flipped over is going to be”. The outcome of a single poker game can indeed be determined by the flip of a card—just like the outcome of a single baseball game can be determined by a bad hop, the results of a horse race (legal to wager on in the United States, thanks to a generous legal carve-out) by the condition of the track, or indeed the price of a company’s shares by adverse weather, say, striking a manufacturing plant. Time and chance happeneth to them all, as the preacher said.

    But poker players do not play just one game. A good player knows how to minimise his losses during a bad streak and maximise his winnings during a good one. Skilled poker players, to use David Sklansky’s memorable phrase, are “at war with luck”. The relevant question is not whether luck has any role at all, but whether poker itself is principally a game of luck or skill. Common-sense would seem to settle that question: there are numerous professional poker players, and they make a living because they are better at the game than the average weekend kitchen-table player (I am a pretty good kitchen-table player; every time I have sat down with professionals I have been skinned alive, swiftly and mercilessly). I know of no professional roulette or slots players, for instance, and about the pamphlets at my corner bodega that purport to reveal “secrets of the lottery” the less said the better. But why rely just on common sense?

    Here, for instance, is a paper from Steven Levitt and Thomas Miles, that analysed play during the 2010 World Series of Poker and found that skilled players made an average return on investment of over 30%, compared with -15% for others (profits that most investors would kill for, especially today). Cigital, a software consultancy, analysed 103m hands of Texas Hold ’Em played at Pokerstars.com, and found that 76% of them ended before a showdown: that is, before opposing players reveal their cards and the strength of their openly compared hands determines the winner. Victory, in other words, was determined not my Mr Hills’s feared flip of a card, but by players’ in-game decisions. It further found that in a showdown only slightly more than half the hands were won by the table’s best possible five-card hand. In 49.7% of the cases the player who could have made the best possible hand folded before the showdown: another outcome determined not by chance but by player decisions. Finally, consider losing rather than winning. Can you deliberately lose a hand of poker if you tried? Of course: bet badly, fold with winning cards, and so on. Can you deliberately lose a game of baccarat or roulette? No: to play you have to bet on an outcome that might happen, regardless of what you do.

    Offhand, the only games I can think of in which luck plays no part at all are chess and go. There must be others, though. Readers, what do you think? Any suggestions to add to the list? Any thoughts on the skill-versus-chance argument?

    Question: What implications does this have in the real-time world?

    Dogz

  • elder-schmelder
    elder-schmelder

    Was this published because the powers that be, are voting on making online poker legal in the US?

    elder-schmelder

    PS: I had a great run saturday and sunday in poker :)

  • bohm
    bohm

    IN THE New York Times on October 9th, Chad Hills, a gambling analyst for Focus on the Family—a position roughly comparable to monitoring Satanic churches for the Vatican—was quoted disparaging the argument that poker is a game of skill rather than chance, because nobody “can tell you what the next card flipped over is going to be”.

    Chad is either being paid for not understanding, well, basically the entire field of machine learning and most of physics, or the journalist did a very poor job.

  • Terry
    Terry

    The real revelation about Poker is that it is all about Money Management.

    What you don't bet you can't lose.

    Knowing when to get your money in and when NOT is the greatest skill!

    So too in life. Getting out of the Jehovah's Witnesses rather than sticking in and "riding the bet" to possibly get an Armageddon payoff comes to mind.

    The amount of money you stand to win versus how much you have to bet to get it is HUGE.

    SUNK COST FALLACY is important to study.

    In Chess, the biggest lesson, to me is the accumulation of tiny advantages that eventually add up to something important. At that point you exchange your accumulated advantage for material or position.

    The Boa Constrictor has the same approach!

  • AK MCGRATH
    AK MCGRATH

    I am typing this in the middle of a break from one of my I-net poker games. I have several lined up for the evening, and will be multi-tasking as usual.

    Course, I can only play for chips since online poker is basically banned for $$.

    Do I think poker is a game of pure luck or chance vs. skill? HELL NO! Now, I am no expert. This chick has been playing for a few years, mainly sticking with Omaha & NL Hold Em. I have a handful of poker books, subscribe to some sites and have watched a few poker games on TV, incl WSOP.

    To me, slot machines are chance. Scratch off tickets are chance. Mega Millions & Powerball winners took a "chance" and got "lucky".

    Poker so is much more than that. Just as with football you have your offense, defense and special teams each with their own indiviual plays you can draw from, so it is with poker.

    Just because you are dealt pocket aces does not mean you will win that hand. And once you're dealt your cards, how will you play it? Slow? Push all in? Sure, the flop, turn and river definitely play a part in each hand, but it is the skill of the player, that determines the outcome more times than not. The cards are the chance. The poker player is the skill.

    There is not skill in picking a winning lottery number. Just some favorite numbers I suppose. But if there is a clear way of picking the numbers, someone PLEASE let me know. I sure could use a few million buckaroos! A scratch off ticket. No skill there. Just luck that you picked the right ticket at the right time to earn some easy moolah.

    But a professional poker player's life is probably as compicated as the game itself. Eeking out a living problem solving one better than your other opponents each step of the way makes for an interesting, and tiresome life, I would suppose. Yet, quite satisfying at the end of the day if you can do something you really love.

    Which is why I ask why I-net poker cannot be regulated and legalized. It seems VERY HYPOCRITAL to me that states, such as my own advertise gambling such as the Mega Millions, Powerball, Scratch Off Tickets, Keno, and Daily lottery drawings, yet it is illegal to gamble online playing poker. WTF IS THE DIFFERENCE? At least with poker you have a shot at winning, based on your skill, and with far fewer people involved. If they were to legalize & regulate poker, then adult human beings can decide for themselves if they want to participate or not. Just as they have that privilege for drinking alcohol, smoking or having sex before marriage (strike most of those if you're a JW~you have no rights). Plus, do you realize how much money they would gain in taxes? It is estimated in the BILLIONS! Might solve an issue or two me thinks.

    Ok. I'm done with my 02. I shall now gamble it away...in chips.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Full Tilt Poker is an Online Ponzi Scheme, Feds Say | Threat Level ...

    www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/09/full-tilt-ponzi-scheme/

    Sep 20, 2011 – Federal prosecutors alleged Tuesday that an online gambling site ... poker company, but a global Ponzi scheme,” Preet Bharara, the U.S. ...

    Very interesting! The comments under the article have people pointing to the banking system and Federal Reserve

    in order to justify what the Full-Tilt people did. Tsk tsk.

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