Roman Empire Still Alive and Kicking

by Defender 7 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Defender

  There has been a lot of discussion here about the succession of world powers and where we are now in the timeline of things especially when compared to scriptural prophecies.

  Of interest is Daniel's interpretation of the dream that King Nebuchadnezzar had of a large image recorded in Chapter 2:40

  "And as for the fourth kingdom, it will prove to be strong like iron. Forasmuch as iron is crushing and grinding everything else, so like iron that shatters, it will crush and shatter even all these. 41 And whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of molded clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom itself will prove to be divided, but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it, forasmuch as you beheld the iron mixed with moist clay. 42 And as for the toes of the feet being partly of iron and partly of molded clay, the kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile. 43 Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind, but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay."

  Those few verses prove to be quite insightful.

  1- The fourth beast (legs of iron of the image) was non other than Rome.

  2- The feet and toes were of iron and molded clay. Notice that the same metal "iron" still runs in the feet, as opposed to the previous powers that were represented by different metals, ie gold, silver and copper. Also Daniel states in Dan 2:41 that the kingdom itself will prove to be divided, thus it is Rome that will end up being divided.

  That actually did happen when Rome split into two empires the western part had Rome as its capital and the eastern part that had Constantinople as its capital. Then Rome was sacked and later Constatinople fell to the Turks. After that a long succession of lesser Roman Empires began to emerge starting with the Holy Roman Empire under Charelmegne in France.

  3- The kingdom is strong and fragile represents the many nation states that sprung from the domain of the Roman Empire, yet still retaining many Roman characteristics, such in their language, laws, government and armies. If we look at the history of Europe post the initial Roman Empire, we find states such as France, Holland, England, Germany, Austria/Hungary, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Portugal etc. where at one time or another, they proved to be strong and sometimes fragile. Today, the USA which is an offshoot from european powers, and considered by many geopolitical analysts as a current "european" power, can be compared to iron versus Holland, Belgium, Portugal compared to clay as an example.

  4- Clay repesented mixture with the offspring of mankind, can be an indication that the modern states are increasingly governed by democratic (public) process as opposed to kings, Emperors and Ceasars.

  5- Iron not mixing with Clay. Eurpean history is proof positive, that all attempts, so far, to reunite Europe had met with disaster, not to mention a couple of world wars.

  6- Of course, we are now awaiting the final part and that is the cutting out of the stone without hand and the destruction of the whole image.

  Those who question the extent to which Roman characteristics still permeates our western world need not look further than the use of latin in our everyday language. Here is an interesting article from the Independent http://argument.independent.co.uk/regular_columnists/miles_kington/story.jsp?story=132625.

  Those living in the US can go and check the many local and federal government and military insignia, emblems and flags and see the amount of latin used. The very government institutions such as the legislative bodies such as Congress and the Senate, the Judicial and the executive branches show clear Roman influence. Those who study law become acutely aware of the influence of the Roman Empire.

  Yes, the Roman Empire is still alive and well in our language, our culture and our institutions.

  Nevermind the many critics who question the authenticity of the book of Daniel, for anyone to write, centuries in advance, about such developments is quite remarkable.
• 

  Moxy

  ???!?!?!?!!!!

  because english uses latin, america and the UK are offshoots of rome?!?

  this is bizarre! think about this. english uses about as much greek as latin and the democratic government is greek in origin. shouldnt that count for more points?!? is america merely an offshoot of greece? how on earth do you reason this way? how can you say the distinction between 7th century BC babylon and 6th century BC persia is greater than the distinction between 1st century rome and the american and british governments, TWO THOUSAND YEARS later???

  sry to carry on like this but this gets me.

  mox
• 

  Defender

  Moxy

  It is not just in our language. I used that just as ONE example.

  Notice however, that when Persia defeated Babylon, it was a swift takeover where much of the Babylonain institutions were replaced with Persian ones. The same thing happened when Greece defeated Persia. The remarkable thing is that although the initial Roman Empire lasted until the 4th-5th century AD, and that is close to 1500 years ago, many of its institutions are still in existence today.
• 

  proplog2

  Britain was anti-Rome. After Rome left Britain it tried but could never get things back to normal in Gaul which was a prerequisite for reestablishing itself in Britain - accross the channel.

  Henry the VIII now there was a pro Roman Brit! The Watchtower has an amusing view of history.

  If there ever was a successor to the Roman Empire you would have to look to Russia. They even considered Moscow to be the 3rd Rome. The Russian style of rule is Roman. They used their iron fist to beat people on their borders into submission. That's how Russia got to be the biggest land empire the world has known - stretching accross 11 time zones.

  Modern history has shown up Russia's biggest weakness - it is in a continuous state of falling apart due to its 100+ nationalities. It still has the strength of iron - the ability to obliterate any serious enemy with its nuclear arsenal. The USA would never consider attacking Russia like it did Serbia or Iraq. There is still nuclear parity between Russia and the USA. As much as both want to declare the cold war is over you just have to ask what are the targets of their missiles.
• 

  Moxy

  if one wants to find an explanation of why britain is NOT the successor of rome, one needn't look very far. we dont have to go outside the WT publications, why, we dont even have to go outside the WT interpretations of daniel! in daniel's king of the north and south prophecy, which scholars again agree, goes no farther than maccabean period in its descriptions, the WT engages in some incredible twisting to make it stretch to the 20th century.

  unfortunately, they appear to have forgotten the history they used earlier in daniel 7 which made both britain AND america mere offshoots of rome (as defender argues above.) in their interpretation of the two kings, rome is identified with the king of north, solely in order to get jesus into the prophecy. later they need to get to the 20th century, so they give a short explanation of why the successor to rome is actually GERMANY! britain and america become the king of the south, in OPPOSITION to the north king. how can britain be both the successor to AND the opponent of rome? one can flip between the two chapters in the Daniel book and find the short paragraphs that condense centuries of history into a few intelligent-looking sentences that argue the EXACT OPPOSITE THINGS! one that says britain takes over rome, and one that says germany does. in the SAME BOOK!

  to be fair, its not the author's fault exactly. this book is a simplified version of the Your Will Be Done from everyones favourite oracle, fred franz. the modern WT is stuck with his lengthy historical rantings and no one seems to have a clue what to do about any of it.

  mox
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  expatbrit

  Mox:

  Could you give the page numbers for material mentioned in your above post please? It sounds like something I'd love to have up my sleeve.

  Expatbrit
• 

  expatbrit

  bttt for MOXY who's obviously IGNORING ME.

  Expatbrit
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  Moxy

  sorry. took me a while to get to this and had to type it out because i couldnt find my 1999 CD. i put a full explanation here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=22242&site=3

  mox