No hope for understanding the universe?

by sleepy 9 Replies latest jw friends

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  sleepy

  Is there no hope for truly understanding the universe?
  If a person believes that we were created by a supreme being who is in control of and fully understands the universe, he may reason that we were created with the ability to also understand the universe.
  But if we are not created and have just evolved as part of a natural prosses why should we asume that our brain should have any grasp on a true understanding of things.
  How can we know that our brains just are not in tune or cannot grasp any of the fundementaly important concepts that case this universe to exist?
  Maybe in trying to understand the universe we are just tying ourselves up in knot trying to know the unknowable?
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  Bodhisattva

  The larger society's declaration that certain information is unknowable has given the greatest impetus to discovery. We have moved beyond the perceptions nature has given us with inventions such as radio telescopes, and we continue to move forward because we do not become convinced we are done. Thinking that knowledge had already reached a pinnacle is just what kept Europe down during the Dark Ages, when the Church enforced Aristotelian thought, and its what keeps Islamic nations down today, when a church enforces the idea that a book is the final and unsurpassable word of God.

  Bodhisattva
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  Abaddon

  Interesting point, but not one I agree with.

  You are speculating at the possible limits to human understanding of a non-god Universe, when we do not seem to have reached them. Everyone who has even thought for a moment that there is a big wall or limit of knowledge or ability gets proved wrong.

  In England the Astronomer Royal went on the record as saying space travel was 'absolute bunk'. Sputnik went up within five years.

  In the early 19th C, some people speculated that train travel above a certain speed would suffocate the passengers by means of air pressure.

  So, although it might happen, and although I doubt there are that many people who will every be able to chat informally about M-Theory, or know what they are talking about when they speak of 11 dimensional space, we ain't there yet.

  Conversely, you argue that in a god-Universe, some may argue that we would be given the ability to comprehend that Universe. This is actually the opposite from what many religonists do when they hit a problem with their beliefs; it's our fault for not understanding it, as we are imperfect mortals who should not dare question their conception of a god. I find ineffability to be an unconvincing arguement, personally speaking, and would agree if we are a product of god, he would make sure we got it, so am more inclined to agree with your second point, although as an atheist(ish) it's an imaginary point.

  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
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  kid B

  I can't agree either.

  I think that the fact that we know practically nought about the universe cannot lead us to any conclusions about whether we have a creator or not.

  Not understanding the nature of the universe could mean that:
  a) there is a god and god never intended us to understand the whole lot, OR
  b) there is no god and the universe is just too bloody big.
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  sleepy

  Abbadon
  "You are speculating at the possible limits to human understanding of a non-god Universe, when we do not seem to have reached them"

  I not sure that i'm speculating, just asking the question why should we expect to understand the universe?It would be somekind of amazing fluke if our brains had the ccappability of understanding everthing.And thats what we would be asking of it to understand the universe (by that i mean everything that exists) is to understand everything.
  I think we have a long way to go yet with human knowledge and capability .

  Lets look at a few possibilities.
  1.information is infinite.
  2.information has a limit.
  3.The human brain is infinite.
  4.The human brain has a limit.
  5.The human brain can always understand information
  6.The human brain can sometimes understand information.

  If we jiggle around a bit you will find many combinations of possbilites .
  For example information could have a limit and so could the human brain but those limits could be a different levels and the brains ability to understand information that it thinks it knows could be limited.

  With most situations apart from the brain konwing everything and understanding it, we would have a situation were we could not know if we knew everything because we don't know everything.
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  Lee Elder

  I suggest you pick up a copy of Steven Hawking's new book,
  "The Universe in a Nutshell", if you can find one. We've
  learned a great deal about the universe in recent years.

  Lee
• 

  larc

  Sleepy,

  Although we don't know everything, we know a huge amount compared to who ever wrote about Adam, Eve, and Noah.

  As far as the limits of the human brain, that does not slow us down. Since we have learned to write and create books and libraries, are knowedge keeps building. In fact, our knowledge is increasing at an exponential rate.
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  Joseph Joachim

  Sleepy, you said: But if we are not created and have just evolved as part of a natural prosses why should we asume that our brain should have any grasp on a true understanding of things.

  The brain and the human mind are products of millions of years of natural selection and are adapted to the environment we live in. Suppose that a primitive antropoid sees two lions getting into his cave but only one getting out, what would he conclude? Well, you bet that those who couldn't figure there was a lion still inside are not among our ancestors. That's how our innate sense of arithmetics evolved. The problem is, our senses are only adapted to our environment (ie: macroscopic phenomena on Earth). We can still understand very well certain phenomena in the Universe; even Relativity is understandable, although counter-intuitive. Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, is just sets of equations on paper; it's comprehensible but not understandable. Most likely, there are things in the Universe that cannot even be mathematicized and thus will always be beyond our capabilities of abstraction and comprehension.
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  ThiChi

  There is an old Tibetan saying that “the farther you go, the less you know.” In other words, new discoveries just present more questions, which, in the end, means you now know less.

  The Beatles’ George Harrison sang, “the farther one travels, the less one will learn...” “...Without looking out of my window, I can learn the ways of heaven...” -Sgt Pepper

  Pretty heavy.........
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  2SYN

  Ah, Sleepy, you have just managed to stumble across what is formally known as the Godell Incompleteness Theorem, which more-or-less states exactly what you just asked.

  JJ: Einstein also thought that nobody would understand his theory of Relativity...and now not only do many people 'grok' it, but it has been proven wrong! HA!

  The earlier in the forenoon you take the sun bath, the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing. - The Golden Age