"The Sign"

by N.drew 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    "What will be the sign of your presence Lord?" Matthew 24:3 "and having answered...." (the answer NOT be included in the canon) then it is written "look out that you are not misled" BUT it might mean "look out that you do not cause a misleading..."

    Then the third part of the question.. "when will the completion occur?"

    What I think it means is first he did not give (us) an answer to the first question which I believe meant "what will be the evidence that you are for us".

    So my point is the self proclaimed interpreters of what the Lord has said keeps saying that the sign of HIS presence is "nation will rise against nation...food shortages, earthquakes ect...but those are the answer to "what is the completion of the age", not a sign of his presence.

    For it is written "no sign will be give except the sign of Jonah".

    Anyway, please let's stop calling the evidence for Christ all the bad things. OK?

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    I prefer no Parking

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Right on. Jesus was not providing a sign of His presence/second coming/parousia, but precursors to the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Numerous troubles were to come upon Jesus' generation...before the sign to flee Jerusalem's impending onslaught including the destruction of the temple.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Right on. Jesus was not providing a sign of His presence/second coming/parousia, but precursors to the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Actually that's not the case exactly, though I acknowledge the complexity of this prophecy as spread out over the 4 gospels. In reality, only Mark and Matthew actually reference the "great tribulation" of Daniel, which was the Holocaust. Luke includes a part of the conversation relating to the fall of Jeruslaem, but specifically places the signs Jesus mentions relating to the great tribulation AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Note in which chronological order Jesus describes the destruction of Jerusalem with reference to the signs connected with the second coming:

    LUKE 21:

    10 Then he went on to say to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; 11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.

    [The above are the signs connected with the second coming. But note in the next verse he says before these things, etc. and thus some events that would occur before the above signs and that leads into the description of the fall of Jerusalem.]

    12 “Butbefore all these things people will lay their hands upon YOU and persecute YOU , delivering YOU up to the synagogues and prisons, YOU being haled before kings and governors for the sake of my name... 20 “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near...

    Thus the specific things that happen to Jerusalem are placed before the signs of the second coming. Many do not realize, therefore, that only Matthew and Mark refer to the "great tribulation" of Daniel, but Luke does not mention any "great tribulation" or Daniel, but does include the destruction of Jerusalem which is not referenced by Mark or Matthew and he dates this before the signs connected with the second coming.

    But having noted that, this is also a moot point since the year of the second coming is specifically connected to the year of the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. Thus this issue of when the second coming will take place is only a discussion of those who don't consider the chronology of the "7 times" as being relevant or correctly interpreted. Now the chronology of the NB Period and Persian period is problematic because of political revisionism, but basically you have three choices, all of which occur in the 20th Century, long after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE. Those choices are based on the fall of Jerusalem based on the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE, which are JW's date of 607 BCE or the secular date based on Babylonian records of 587 BCE. The third choice is based on strict Bible chronology which dates year 1 of Cyrus to 455 BCE (i.e. as does Martin Anstey in his "Romance of Bible Chronology" (1913), pointing out 82 fake years of Persian history), which would date the beginning of the last deportation 70 years earlier in 525 BCE and thus the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE. Thus 607, 587 or 529 BCE give you 2nd coming years of 1914, 1934 or 1992 -- your pick! But all clearly are long after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

    BUT... the fall of Jerusalem parallels what happens during WWII. That is, the great tribulation occurs before the Jews are restored to their homeland and thus when the Jews are in exile. Thus "Judea" becomes a generalized referfence to where the Jews primarily resettled and "the holy city" of Jerusalem becomes the primary city of Jews in exile, which was Warsaw, Poland, by far. The surrounding of Jerusalem by encamped armies reflects the chronology when Jesus was surrounded by the arm mob in the garden of Gethseme. Likewise, during WWII, Warsaw, Poland in 1939 was surrounded by the Nazi army. This was the same sign of a "disgusting thing in a holy place" after which there was a time to flee to the mountains, literally. The days of "Passion" can be superimposed on the events of WWII and Christ's resurrection. That is, events over an 8-year period from 1939-1947. This matches the same 8-day period from when Jesus was surrounded in the garden and then his resurrection.

    SAT/Nisan 15 AM -- 1939 FALL Jesus surrounded in garden -- Warsaw surrounded by Nazis

    SAT/Nisan 15 PM -- 1940 SPRING Jesus in custody - Jews in custory, Holocaust begins.

    SUN/Nisan 16 AM - 1940 FALL "

    SUN/Nisan 16 PM - 1941 SPRING "

    MON/Nisan 17 AM -- 1941 FALL "

    MON/Nisan 17 PM -- 1942 SPRING "

    TUE/Nisan 18 AM -- 1942 FALL "

    TUE/Nisan 18 PM -- 1943 SPRING "

    WED/NISAN 19 AM -- 1943 FALL "

    WED/NISAN 19 PM -- 1944 SPRING Jesus' last trial - Jesus impaled at 9 p.m.

    THU/Nisan 20 AM -- 1944 FALL Jesus on torture stake.

    THU/NiSAN 20 PM -- 1945 SPRING Jesus dies at 3 p.m. (3 DAYS/3 NIGHTS BEGIN) DAY 1 - Holocaust/WWII ends. Silence

    FRI/Nisan 21 AM -- 1945 FALL NIGHT 1 - SILENCE

    FRI/Nisan 21 PM -- 1946 SPRING DAY 2 - SILENCE

    SAT/Nisan 22 AM -- 1946 FALL NIGHT 2 - SILENCE

    SAT/Nisan 22 PM -- 1947 SPRING DAY 3 - SILENCE

    SUN/Nisan 23 AM -- 1947 FALL NIGHT 3 - Jesus rises - November 30, 1947 Jews restored to homeland, exile ends.

    Remember, these signs occur over a generation of 80 years beginning with a world war, then the "great tribulation" followed by the restoration of the Jews to their homeland and the end of their exile. Those things did not follow the destruction of Jerusalem. The official exile continued until November 30, 1947, which was the end of the "appointed times of the nations" which Luke mentions.

    The signs + the chronology tell us when the 2nd coming will take place. The destruction of Jerusalem is an event Jesus places before the signs of the last days. Only Luke references the destruction of Jerusalem, and only Matthew and Mark speak of the "great tribulation" of Daniel, which turned out to be the Holocaust. This time of distress was to be like one that had never occurred before nor would occur again, a historically unique event. Certainly the Holocaust stands out as a very unique event in history, in fact, it is called "the worst event in human history."

    LS

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Well Lars...I see we disagree. Unlike the WTS, I don't begrudge you the right to be wrong. :^)

    When Jesus said in Matthew 24:34 that all of these things would happen to this generation, He, as always in the gospels, was referring to his own generation. (see verse 36 of the previous chapter for example).

    Here is a great commentary from a source you regarded highly:

    "In the years leading up to 66 C.E., Christians would have seen many of the preliminary elements of the composite sign being fulfilled-wars, famines, even an extensive preaching of the good news of the Kingdom. (Acts 11:28; Colossians 1:23) When, though, would the end come? What did Jesus mean when he said: 'This generation [Greek, ge.ne.a'] will not pass away'? Jesus had often called the contemporaneous mass of opposing Jews, including religious leaders, 'a wicked, adulterous generation.' (Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36) So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of "this generation," he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history; nor did he mean his followers, even though they were "a chosen race." (1 Peter 2:9) Neither was Jesus saying that "this generation" is a period of time.Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *

    The wicked generation of Jewish opposers who could observe the sign being fulfilled would also experience the end. (Matthew 24:6, 13, 14) And that they did! In 70 C.E., the Roman army returned, led by Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian. The suffering of the Jews who were again bottled up in the city is almost beyond belief." Eyewitness Flavius Josephus reports that by the time the Romans demolished the city, about 1,100,000 Jews had died and some 100,000 were taken captive, most of those soon to perish horribly from starvation or in Roman theaters. Truly, the tribulation of 66-70 C.E. was the greatest that Jerusalem and the Jewish system had ever experienced or would ever experience. How different the outcome was for Christians who had heeded Jesus' prophetic warning and had left Jerusalem after the departure of the Roman armies in 66 C.E.!

    The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12)

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7
    Which generation was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34?

    The Greek word “ genea” (pronounced ghen-eh-ah') appears thirteen times in Matthew's gospel. Four times it is used to delineate “one set of parents to the next”. Ignoring Matthew 24:34 for the moment, in every other appearance, including 6 of the instances Matthew places the definite article “this” (houtos) before “ generation”, “this generation” ( houtos genea), in context, clearly cover the same group of people -i.e. “Christ's contemporaries”

    Mt 11:16 But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, (persons then living contemporary with Christ)
    Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. (persons contemporary with Christ)
    Mt 12:42 "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.(persons contemporary with Christ).
    Mt 12:45 "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself.... That is the way it will also be with this evil generation." ( persons contemporary with Christ)
    Mt 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? ..."(persons contemporary with Christ)
    Mt 23:36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
    Reading Mt.23:36 in context again shows " the persons then living contemporary with Christ are being referred to:
    29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. :33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of Gehenna? 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.( persons contemporary with Christ)
    Mt 24:34
    "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Hands down, this is the best sign I have ever seen:

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