Any good explanations for 2 Chronicles 36:17-21?

by Knowsnothing 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    From the NIV:

    17 He brought up against them the king of the Babylonians, [g] who killed their young men with the sword in the sanctuary, and did not spare young men or young women, the elderly or the infirm. God gave them all into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar. 18 He carried to Babylon all the articles from the temple of God, both large and small, and the treasures of the LORD’s temple and the treasures of the king and his officials. 19 They set fire to God’s temple and broke down the wall of Jerusalem; they burned all the palaces and destroyed everything of value there.

    20 He carried into exile to Babylon the remnant, who escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and his successors until the kingdom of Persia came to power. 21 The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah.

    Now, is this text saying what I think it's saying? That Jerusalem lay desolate for 70 years? I've seen Doug Mason's critique along with AnnOmaly's posts and I've used the search function but, I can't find anything that deals with this text well. Any help? I appreciate it.

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    It doesn't say that the land enjoyed 70 years of rest. It said that the land rested UNTIL the 70 years were fulfilled. During the 609 to 539 70-year period of Babylonian Dominance, Judah, along with other nations, were to serve Babylon. Judah rebelled and that is why Jerusalem was destroyed and the people sent into Exile in 587.

    I believe that the 50 years of the Exile, starting in 587, had to do with the Jubilee cycle. The land was to have a Sabbath every 7 years. After seven cycles of this (7*7=49), the 50th year would be a Jubilee year, wherein property would be returned and slaves freed. Therefore, their homeland rested completely in Sabbath for 7 cycles (49 years), while the Jews slaved at Babylon. Then in the 50th year, they were liberated and their homeland returned to them.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Ross E. Winkle's article JEREMIAH'S SEVENTY YEARS FOR BABYLON: A RE-ASSESSMENT PART I: THE SCRIPTURAL DATA. Page 207 onward discusses 2 Chron. 36. Enjoy

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    Oy, thanks!

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I believe that the 50 years of the Exile, starting in 587, had to do with the Jubilee cycle. The land was to have a Sabbath every 7 years. After seven cycles of this (7*7=49), the 50th year would be a Jubilee year, wherein property would be returned and slaves freed. Therefore, their homeland rested completely in Sabbath for 7 cycles (49 years), while the Jews slaved at Babylon. Then in the 50th year, they were liberated and their homeland returned to them.

    An argument can be made that this is exactly the understanding found in Daniel 9:25 re the first unit of seven weeks (49 years).

  • Hoffnung
    Hoffnung

    v.21 reads:

    The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah.

    It is important to note that the 70 years are to be completed in fulfillment of the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah. It would not be correct to try to come to a conclusion about the meaning of this verse, without considering the words of Jeremiah. Where can we find this words of Jeremiah? They are in Jeremiah 25:11b, 12 (NWT): "11b and these nations (the list of "these nations" you find in v.17-26, demonstrating it was not just about Juda & Jerusalem) will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ 12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de′ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite."

    After a period of 70 years during which Juda and all the nations around Babylon had to serve the Babylonians, God would bring Babylon to its end. Historians and JW all agree that this happened in October 539 BC, an event well documented in Daniel 5. So the 70 years in 2 Chron 36:21, are 70 years for Babylon, and not for Jerusalem. The verse specifies that the end of the sabbath rest is determined by the end of the supremacy of Babylon. The end of the Sabbath rest of Jerusalem coincided with the end of Babylon, but the beginning of the Sabbath rest did not have to coincide with the beginning of the 70 years for Babylon. the sabbath rest started with another moment, the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Historians found that the beginning of the period of servitude of the nations to Babylon, or in other words, Babylon's supremacy in the middle east, started in the 17th year of Nabopalassar, the father of Nebuchadnezar. The Supreme power of the middle east until then was Assyria. When Nabopalassar captured Haran, and defeated Assyrias last king Usharballit, Babylon became the supreme power in the middle east. This information you also find in "Insight on the Scriptures", under the heading "Assyria" (suprisingly not Babylon). The siege and capture of Haran is dated by historians to 609 BC. if we add to this 70 years, we end up exactly in 539 BC. Fullfilling exactly all the related prophecies.

    Counting the king's years from the 17th year of Nabopalassar till the fall of babylon, will also give you exactly 70 years, confirming Jeremiah's words.

    I hope this helps you further

    Hoffnung

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Actually, all this preempted by the seventy years of "servitude" that had to be served at Babylon by those who "escaped from the sword" which is a reference to those who were in Egypt and who were deported in year 23 of Neb-II. This is quite clear from Josephus who notes those who served 70 years were those who came from Egypt.

    So having noted that, we understand Zechariah 1 and 7 where 70 years after the destruction of Jerusalem expires in the 2nd year of Darius the Mede. But the Jews are still in exile. Zechariah 7 shows that 70 years of mourning in the seventh month over Gedeliah ended in year 4 of Darius the Mede. That means that Gedaliah was killed in the 20th of Neb-II and began to be mourned the following year. Thus there is a 2-year gap between the expiration of 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem and 70 years of mourning and fasting for Gedaliah. Even so, the context shows that the Jews were stillat Babylon.

    But that makes perfect sense if those last deported in year 23 had to serve that full 70 years. That is, those 70 years would not have expired until 4 years after the fall of Jerusalem. So the Jews indeed were still in exile down into the 6th year of Darius the Mede, who ruled for six years before Cyrus took over the entire empire and the rule at Babylon. Thus in the 1st of cyrus is when the 70 years ended.

    So the true focus in this passage of scripture should be ".... until the kingdom of Persia came to power.." This is a very, very, very specific reference. You see, the Bible makes it quite clear to distinguish the royalty of the Medes from the Royalty of the Persians. That is the primary reason for calling Darius, Dariud the MEDE and Cyrus, Cyrus the PERSIAN. Why is that? Because when the Medo-Persian Empire took over, the Medes were over Babylon. Only Darius the Mede was also the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar III and thus an official Babylonian king. He was not a Persian. After six years of rule, he abdicated to Cyrus who became king over the entire Persian Empire. At this point the "royalty of Persia" began to reign and ended the 70 years of exile of those last deported.

    So you can play word games all you want to and claim the text doesn't mean precisely what it clearly says, which is the desolation and the "rest" are the same thing and both lasted 70 years. But for those who don't want to quibble with that, confront them with the seventy years of servitude of "those who escaped from the sword" who were still in exile in the 2nd and 4th years of Darius the Mede? It is thus Zechariah 1 and 7 which confirms that in actuality, Jerusalem lay desolate for 74 years after the fall of Jerusalem.

    But, of course, the true big elephant in the room is that the Bible's NB Period is 26 years longer than that of current secular history, so those not addressing a direct contradiction for the Bible vs. secular history are not going to ever resolve any of this.

    Now you can use Josephus at Ant. 11.1.1 which clearly shows those last deported served 70 years which ended in the first of Cyrus. Or you can use the VAT4956 which includes 2 references to the original year 37 of Neb-II in 511 BCE to correctly date year 37 to 511 BCE, year 23 to 525 BCE and 70 years following that to 455 BCE for the 1st of Cyrus. If you don't update to the current corrected references and think that 587 BCE is the date for the fall of Jerusalem, then you are simply reflecting on outdated information. The 1st of Cyrus falls in 455 BCE, the last deportation in year 23 of Neb-II falls in 525 BCE and the true fall of Jerusalem, per both the Bible and the VAT4956 date that event to 529 BCE. Until you acknowledge this, you are not discussing the true Biblical timeline, but a pagan timeline which was clearly revised during the Persian Period to expand the rule of some Persian kings.

    Anyway, Zechariah 1 and 7 proves the Jews were still in exile some 70 and 72 years after the fall of Jersualem. Combined with 2 Chronicles 36 it proves Darius the Mede rule for 6 years before Cyrus came to the throne. If your chronology does not reflect this, then it is false and not Biblical. I can claim it is "false" because the VAT4956 forces us to date the 37th of Neb-II to 511 BCE whether we want to or not. Not doing so is simple incompetence at this juncture.

    Bottom line is that the Bible is true, and as Josephus reflects, the 70 years of desolation of the land began with the last deportation and ended in the 1st of Cyrus and includes a 6-year rule by Darius the Mede, who was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II. Start there. Anything short of this has nothing to do with the Bible, so don't even mention 2nd Chronicles.

    Get it right. Or get out of sight.

    LS

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Also critical in the case of whether the 70 years were a literal 70 years of the land being desolate is athe application of the days of error for Judah and Israel.

    Israel's error was 390 years and Judah's 40 years. This combines to a collective total of 430 years. Each tribe has 39 years of error for the 10 tribes (=390 years), and Judah who ruled longer has 40 years of error.

    If you divide 430 years by the two types of agricultural sabbaths reqruired, you get a total of 70 years. The two types of sabbaths were the 7-year sabbath and the jubilee.

    430/7 = 61.4

    430/50 = 8.6

    TOTAL = 70.0 YEARS

    So there is no getting around that the 70 years of desolation applied to the land and was related to sabbath payback, that amount of time being 70 years, as above.

    Many here want to have their cake and eat it too, which is somehow try to keep the revised chronology timeline for the NB Period which was revised by the Persians and then harmonize that with the Bible. But it is impossible. The revised timeline removes 26 years from the NB kings and adds them to the Persian kings, in addition to another 56 years, so that the Greco-Persian Period is distorted by 82 years.

    So it boils down to whether the "70 weeks" prophecy was actually fulfilled in the 1st of Cyrus or not. If so, then 455 BCE dates the 1st of Cyrus and thus you have a critical contradiction between the Bible and the revised secular history. 607 BCE uses the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE as a "pivotal date" but that date is just as wrong as any others they claim are wrong. When the Persians revised their timeline they revised the date for the fall of Babylon as well! So there is a direct conflict in both the "relative chronology" (Biblical NB Period is 26 years longer) as well as the "absolute chronology" (i.e. return from Babylon should be 455 BCE vs 537 BCE).

    So discussing 587 vs 607 BCE is just discussing variations on the non-Biblical, revised chronology.

    No biggee though. The average person is in no way capable of making an informed choice. But it remains a fact that per the Bible, the 1st of Cyrus falls in 455 BCE. If this is too challenging to believe, then so be it. But don't misrepresent the Bible's timeline. The Bible must stand on its own chronology. Of note, Martin Anstey in his "Romance of Bible Chronology" observed the 82-year discrepancy between the Bible and secular history during the Persian Period. So this is an acadmic look at another interpretation of the Biblical timeline that needs to be considered in the 607 BCE discussion of when Jerusalem actually fell. The Bible supports 529 BCE as the date for the fall of Jerusalem, not 607 or 587 BCE.

    LS

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