Thinking about going to the memorial and...

by popcorn_eater 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • popcorn_eater
    popcorn_eater

    Partaking.

    Background: I have never been a JW. I have been brought into their world (and the way better ex-JW world) through having a JW stepdaughter and extended family. I have really come to love my stepdaughter and frankly all this JW stuff pisses me off to no end, as you all might imagine. The more I research the more pissed I get. I come from a Methodist background and although I am agnostic now (with maybe atheistic leanings) I used to really think it was great that anyone who wanted to receive the bread and wine at communion was welcome. Learning about the JW approach to the memorial and those who are permitted to participate in the meal is repellant to me.

    I have had fantasies about releasing this anger (and sending a message) by going to the memorial like my kid wants me to, and partaking. But part of me feels this is horribly disrespectful: I know the rules, it's their house I'm going into, it's not my place to screw with them. Another part of me, the pissed off part, wants to do it, just to mess with them and make the statement that anyone should be welcome to receive Jesus's sacrifice. I don't believe in the necessity of that sacrifice since I am not Christian, but I do believe that if it were true, it should be open to all. And finally, another part of me doesn't want to boost the partaker numbers. Maybe they wouldn't count me anyway.

    I would welcome input on this, from those who know best.

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    For one thing, you wouldn't be included in the partaker numbers because you're not a baptised member of the JWs.

    I can understand your aborrence to the ritual, but I think it would damage your relationship with your JW stepdaughter. It just depends on how good a sense of humour she has?

    Just have to add, when seeing the topic question and your user name, I was going to answer, that you were planning to eat popcorn at the memorial???

  • blond-moment
    blond-moment

    Going and partaking has been on my mind a lot as well. I would love to, now that I know the reality of it all, but at the same time, I feel what is the point. I think about it a lot tho.

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    LOL, I don't know best, but my guess is you would just be labelled 'mentally diseased' or some sort of 'trouble-maker'. Really, it would take hours to convince those people just to do what Jesus said to do... if it was possible to make them understand anything at all!

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    it's their house I'm going into, it's not my place to screw with them

    It is their intention to screw with you.

    Just don't do anything to announce yourself as an opposer.

    As long as you appear to be a potential recruit, they will talk to you. Use that to corner them into having to answer questions that they have been programmed to not answer.

    Good luck

    Chris

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Heh, heh heh...

    Popcorn_eater, I'm an atheist - well, an atheist with "NeoPolyTheist" leanings, but an atheist, nonetheless...

    And I've OFTEN wanted to do the exact same thing....

    Oh, and...

    Welcome to the board!!!!

    Zid - the board's She-Devil...

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Hello popcorn_eater. Welcome. Your instincts are right on the money, but there is a special twist to things when it comes to JWs and partaking..

    " Another part of me, the pissed off part, wants to do it, just to mess with them and make the statement that anyone should be welcome to receive Jesus's sacrifice."

    Bottom line is that everyone does get invited to partake. The parable of the vineyard workers who work for 11 hours is the work of the WTS from 1914 to 1991. Each hour is 7 years and thus 11 hours is 77 years from 1914-1991 (1914 + 77 = 1991). But as you notice in the parable, only the first workers are promised the "penny" up front, which represents the heavenly calling. But once the work is over and the 12th hour begins (1991-1998), the workers are ALL paid the penny, starting from the last to the first.

    That means that the "other sheep" who had had the earthly calling from 1935 onward are invited into the heavenly class once the sealing starts! This is all a big surprise to the first-hour workers who murmur against this process. So another "twist" to this partaking is that the two-class system within the WTS of the anointed and the "other sheep" is Bible based. That is, from the 3rd-hour workers to the 11th-hour workers, no specific payment was discussed, though it was logically presumed it would be something less than the "penny", the full day's wage and thus less than heavenly life. The third hour workers would be recognized after 21 years (3 x 7 = 21) and thus in 1935. 1914 + 21 = 1935. So from 1935 forward, there would be a two-class system among the workers; those who first were called who expected the "penny" and thus heavenly life, and those who expected less, and thus the earthly calling. This reflects the reality of the WTS organization. The first and second hour workers, that is, those who first came into the organization were all of the "anointed." But then after 1935 a second class of workers was recognized as the other sheep.

    Even so, as you sentimentally noed, everyone should be invited to partake. That makes sense. Well, they are, only they don't find out or get invited until after the work is over. I believe the slight increase in partakers reflect that some of the other sheep are being called and anointed as the Bible prophesied. But here are the two twists:

    1. Those of the other sheep who are being sealed between 1991-1998 who truly understand their calling also know that Christ returned in 1992 and ate the last passover on April 6, 1993. So even though they are now in the heavenly class, they also know that the official memorial ended once Christ returned, so they do not partake since they know the symbolism of that memorial is no longer valid. So that's one twist to the reality here, the official memorial ended in 1993.

    2. Again, the second twist is that while indeed those first in the organization were all of the anointed, there would be a time when the invitation by holy spirit would not take place for those later coming into the organization, that is, from the 3rd-hour workers onward. This reality was reflected in the regocnition of a second class among JWs who had the earthly calling in 1935. This reflects the presence of the third-hour workers not be guaranteed the penny up front. But as #1 notes, ALL are invited later on.

    Thing is, where we would have seen a dramatic increase in partakers once the other sheep were eligible, the official memorial ended in 1993. The workers are paid from the last to the first during the 12th hour, which is from 1991-1998, but not before passover of 1993.

    One more twist to all of this is that the 144,000 are just the natural Jews in the kingdom. That represents 1/10th of the entire number. (Isa 6:13). That means the entire number is 1,440,000! So also per the Bible, not only are there many more seats, but those seats were not able to be filled completely by those invited, meaning those from the WTS and out of Christendom. As a result, the seats were filled by many others from "western parts and eastern parts" which means by non Christians. Thus even though many are invited into the kingdom, many fail to respond to that invitation.

    Per the parable of the 10 virgins, which represents the WTS anointed ones, only half of them, the "five wise virgins" are alert enough to recognize the Christ arrived in 1992 and thus are able to join the secret banquet of the messiah. These would not be partaking of the memorial since it ended in 1992. But the other half, the five foolish virgins, are lost to the kingdom. They arrive to early and their seats are taken. So essentially half of the anointed alive at the end of the 12th hour in 1998 do not make the grade and do not enter the kingdom and become the "grapes of wrath."

    So in reality, at the spiritual level, the WTS' memorial is a meaningless and perhaps sacriligious exercise at this point. The true anointed don't partake any more because Christ has returned. So the symbolic gesture of showing that all are invited into the kingdom is moot in relation to the current memorial, even though, indeed, ALL the "other sheep" were invited after 1991, or at least by 1998, the last to the first. So that gesture of partaking would have had some meaning post 1991. But prior to 1991, indeed, the "other sheep" were not officially invited yet; they are invited later, but not up front. So insisting "all" are invited from 1935-1991 would have been inaccurate.

    Of course, the true irony here is if JWs truly believed Jesus Christ returned in 1914, they should have stopped commemorating his death and absence. The memorial was only to be carried out until he returned. So the doctrinal basis for the memorial is spurious from the beginning. Why are they still celebrating the memorial if Christ returned in 1914?

    The good news is, that you or anyone else who is invited could be part of the 1,440,000 bride class. Many are selected who don't even know they are to be a king-priest with Christ until the millennium begins. And many who think they are going to be king-priests will find out they have lost their seat in the kingdom. So in reality, many active witnesses who actually are of the anointed pretend they are of the other sheep and don't partake because they know the official memorial ended in 1993. In the meantime, some of those who know they are of the anointed but don't understand that Christ returned in 1992-1993 may still feel compelled to partake, which is why the number of partakers is increasing. The idea that only 144,000 will go to heaven is another misconception though, the actual number is 1,440,000.

    LS

  • popcorn_eater
    popcorn_eater

    Wow, LS, thanks for all that background information; I was unaware (although I should have known) that it was that convoluted and what the background was ...

    ... but I think it would damage your relationship with your JW stepdaughter. It just depends on how good a sense of humour she has?

    You could be right. she does have a great sense of humor but it does not seem to extend to things JW, which she gets a little defensive about despite her occasional misgivings.

    As long as you appear to be a potential recruit, they will talk to you. Use that to corner them into having to answer questions that they have been programmed to not answer.

    Subversive! I like it! I definitely plan to dress like a JW to get on their good side. I've been to a few meetings. I think my kid's mom knows I have ulterior motives and my kid wrote in her diary that she thinks I'm an ATHEIST. I'm trying to walk the line of insinuating myself and gathering information/planting seeds, but remaining noncommittal, without seeming like I am ready to be recruited. I spread out my attendance sporadically, the occasional meeting or gathering, and make nice to their friends but never anything beyond that.

    But back to the Memorial, who wants to drink out of a cup that other people have also drunk out of? Yuck! Unappetizing. Even annointed people might have mono or cold sores.

    Thanks for your responses, all.

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    JWs will label you as a trouble-maker and "mentally diseased" by "apostate propaganda". Also, I wouldn't recommend going to partake because they usually use a cheap wine and homemade crackers that aren't worth passing your lips. And the talk is a drag, not worth sitting thru.

    You are, however, in a very good position to be able to ask questions in a non-confrontational way, that may motivate them to do some research and perhaps begin to question their beliefs. For example, they restrict their number of anointed to 144,000, yet there were more Christians than that before the 'apostasy' after the first century. There have been some good threads here, and I think there are references at freeminds on that subject. Anyway, I think a carefully questioning approach would work better than a confrontation at the memorial.

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    Welcome popcorn_eater to JWN. Your time might be better spent reading books written by Steve Hassan (i.e., "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves") or by Don Cameron (i.e., "Captives of a Concept"). The best thing that you can do is plan fun outings with your family: introduce your JW step-daughter to nice "Worldly" friends, who are her age; and help her to learn more about the internet (i.e., Wikipedia and articles about the WTBTS) to do her homework.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

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