Let's get this PERFECTION thing out into the open

by Terry 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    Perfection implies two things: a purpose and a tool for the purpose.

    The fork, by itself, is neither perfect nor imperfect.

    A fork is perfect for eating peas but imperfect for eating soup. The purpose and the tool must match.

    People are not, of themselves, imperfect.
    They are suited for or not suited for particular purposes.

    If God wanted humans to understand that eating fruit from a certain tree was "bad" it strikes me as passing strange that he

    created them unlike Himself "not knowing good and bad." The result was that Adam & Eve were missing an important part of their humanity.

    They had the craving "to be like God knowing Good and Bad" but not the nature.

    Unfortunately, the word PERFECT has become distorted into being used in an absolute sense--as though anything COULD be absolute!

    Perfect, when used to mean totally without flaw is sort of a chimera (an illusion or fabrication of the mind) rather than a useful vocabulary term.

    Would you be surprised to know that in Hebrew the word used and translated into Perfect in English is a much more reasonable and useful one.

    Tamim basically means complete or mature or healthy (for example, Lev 22:21).

    21 And whosoever bringeth a sacrifice of peace-offerings unto the LORD in fulfilment of a vow clearly uttered, or for a freewill-offering, of the herd or of the flock, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

    Otherwise, are we to imagine there were, in the absolute sense, any ABSOLUTELY PERFECT animals around to be used?

    However, the sense is really "healthy" in the sense of "free from any mark or damage" (BBE), or with "no blemish" (NRSV, KJV). In other words, it must be a healthy animal and not be lame or sick or one that has obvious deformities (note Mal 1:8, 13; compare similar regulations for priests in Lev 21:16-21).

    Bringing the discussion into focus we need to pull our head out of the imaginary clouds.

    You and I can try on a lot of white tennis shoes and find a pair that fit "perfectly" but which, if worn to a wedding would NOT be perfect.

    So, the same shoes can be perfect and not perfect all at the same time.

    That meaning of healthy, whole, or mature dominates most use of the equivalent Greek term in the New Testament (telos or teleios). Something, or someone, can be complete, healthy, or mature yet not be "without flaw." In fact, it is much easier to be mature and still have flaws, than it is to be without error or without flaw. Many people are mature, but few if any are "without flaw." A six year old can be mature, and still have a lot of growing to do, just like a person can be "holy" and have a lot to learn about spiritual maturity.

    http://www.crivoice.org/terms/t-perfect.html

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    You think about these things a lot Terry, and though I rarely comment, I appreciate your thinking.

    My own thoughts go along the lines like these:

    Suppose we were given faux free will instead of real free will. Now even at present we have no way of knowing whether we have one or the other.

    Suppose though, for the moment that we do.

    Suppose that instead of this we were given faux free will and thought we had the real thing.

    Suppose we were then told "Don't do this, else we'd die." but we in point of fact lacked the ability to actually do that which we might have imagined we might do such that we imagined we thought better of the whole thing and refrained, but in point of fact we were designed to racionate in this manner.

    By these means we would if the story be true, be living forever congratulating ourselves on our wisdom and prudence in acting in our best long-term interests instead of being bit actors in this tragedy of human history.

    Where's the "Love" in this?

    I asked this once when I was still in of a young man who was intelligent enough to make the connections.

    His response was "Well, Jehovah would know."

    And I responded with a wry grin..."So it's all about him then is it?"

  • clearpoison
    clearpoison

    Terry, interesting thouhgts. This perfection thing is really my main issue on personal level. I do not plan to be perfect. If what you say here would be accepted by society I should be running back there and quickly.

    But I would like to comment your tennis shoes.

    You state that they are perfect for playing tennis but not perfect for wedding. Who defines that, if the user defines that wow I really like these, they fit my feet and feel that they are perfect to wedding, why would be that more wrong than the other guests in the wedding critisizing his decision. Is is possible that at the same time the tennis shoes are perfect for wedding, for this person who gets immense joy of wearing them, but is as you state totally imperfect for those other people who can't stand seeing that leisurly shoes in wedding context and cannot share the joy of the one using those tennis shoes.

    CP

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    "...are we to imagine there were, in the absolute sense, any ABSOLUTELY PERFECT animals around to be used?"

    I dunno, but it looks like that nearly absolutely perfect sheep is about to be used by that imperfect shepherd.

    perfect

  • Terry
    Terry

    You state that they are perfect for playing tennis but not perfect for wedding. Who defines that, if the user defines that wow I really like these, they fit my feet and feel that they are perfect to wedding, why would be that more wrong than the other guests in the wedding critisizing his decision. Is is possible that at the same time the tennis shoes are perfect for wedding, for this person who gets immense joy of wearing them, but is as you state totally imperfect for those other people who can't stand seeing that leisurly shoes in wedding context and cannot share the joy of the one using those tennis shoes.

    The best way I can answer you is to distinguish between the subjective (Private and Personal) and the objective (public and same for everybody) uses.

    Personally we make selections to please ourselves.

    Socially we factor in the opinions of others.

    Society tends to function best when there is a conscious agreement to modify our personal choices so as not to offend "others".

    Those who agree have an easier time with people than those who just go their own way (non-conformists.)

    The thing that makes discussions like these chaotic and confused is when we INSIST ON ABSOLUTES.

    There are very few absolutes. "Perfect" is only relative. Perfect is not absolute. Perfect is conditional, situational and context driven.

    We have subjective "perfect" valuations and we have objective valuations when we socialize.

    Did that answer the question?

  • clearpoison
    clearpoison

    Terry, yes it did

    We can agree that perfect is not perfect, or as you say it's relative. The paradoxe here is ofcourse that perfect should be perfect and stable in same way as the truth should always be true. But it is really, just relative.

    CP

  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    Terry my brain hurts!!!!

  • Terry
    Terry

    We can agree that perfect is not perfect, or as you say it's relative. The paradoxe here is ofcourse that perfect should be perfect and stable in same way as the truth should always be true. But it is really, just relative.

    Well, frankly, you can't use a word to define itself.

    "Perfect" is--stated in another way--"the most useful for a purpose" among many choices.
    The other (and ridiculous) use of PERFECT as "without any flaws" is more of an ideal than a reality.

    In manufacturing there are tolerances according to Industry Standard. As long as the standard is met the product is passed by inspectors.

    The only thing that actually exists which is totally without flaw is the "Lowered Standard". :)

    When you use the phrase "should be" you are externally intruding unnecessarily and creating an avoidable controversy.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Terry,

    Perfection is not like being a robot that does all things perfectly in a controlled environment, rather it is coming to a knowledge of God's laws, then upholding those laws by not breaking them.

    It is the breaking of law that is to miss the mark of perfection. When you learn a law, you are not willingly going to break it.

    I do not think that God expects us to reach perfection in the present age. It is the next age that teaches and furthers the path to perfection.

    Sinning willfully is what God forbids but believers cannot stop to analyze every single they do, but if they did, they would become bogged down in their ability to function daily.

    God recognizes the pitfalls of being under outside tempters. Our job is not to analyze every aspect of our lives in this present age but to pray that we do not come into temptation, and if we do, then pray that we be delivered from its clutches.

    Perfection has a lot to do with knowledge, but in various degrees. The Ten Commandments were a summary of God's will and what He expected of us. More laws came that expounded on the original ten. This is because of circumstances that revolve around life in creation.

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