@Phizzy:
According to Russell in Zions Watchtower of March 1896 he wanted his little church in [Allegheny] to celebrate the last supper on Nisan14 [because] Jesus instituted it then, some time after 6pm, by 3pm the next afternoon, still Nisan14 he was dead.
At 6pm three hours later Nisan15 began, Passover began, and the Jews would eat the lamb and bitter herbs, when the sun was down..
So Russells view was that Jesus did not celebrate Passover, being dead, on [preparation] day.
Thus Jesus died at the time the lambs were being slaughtered in Jerusalem.
I don't agree with everything you state here as to Russell's view of the celebration of the last supper, since if what you say here is true, then Russell was wrong about Jesus' not having observed the seder as did the rest of the Jews on Nisan 14, the same day on which Jesus died. But I'll maybe come back to this point later.
If I am correct the WT's latest explanation on this is not quite as clear as Russells. They seem to infer the Last Supper was a Seder, a Passover celebration, and that the slaughter of the lamb ,eating of the lamb, and Jesus death all took place on Nisan 14....
I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I can tell that you that we teach the last supper to have been celebrated immediately after the seder; IOW it was an added feature of the passover that the rest of the Jews celebrated that year -- in 33 AD -- but a feature at which only Jesus and 11 of Jesus' apostles observed after the seder.
@cofty:
Its the bible that is in a "mucking fuddle" about this. Compare the synoptics with John and you will see they can't agree on which day Jesus died nor at what time of day.
Perhaps if you would point out the reason you believe the gospels to not be in agreement as to the day on which Jesus died, that would help me to understand why it is you are saying this, because I cannot agree with you. As far as the time of day when Jesus died, I take your point, @cofty, but the fact that the gospels do not all agree on this point is primarily due to the perspective taken by each of the gospel writers.
@Phizzy:
I agree Cofty, they certainly seem at odds, but I have seen a fairly persuasive argument that says Jesus died on Nisan 14, [preparation] day at around 3pm, and that this does not disagree with the Synoptics, if you read what they do not say, i.e no mention of the lamb being eaten etc, which would mean Jesus did not celebrate the Passover on Nisan [15], being dead.
In 33 AD, Preparation fell on the same day as the Passover. Perhaps you have a different view of Preparation or you do not think of it as being the day that immediately precedes the seven-day Festival of Unfermented Cakes, for this festival is a holy day, a Sabbath day that was to be regarded as a "holy convention," for the first of eight consecutive days that the Jews were obliged to eat unfermented cakes began on Preparation, which in 33 AD was also the Passover, and the Passover seder is always eaten on Nisan 14. To put that in another way, in 33 AD, Preparation and the Passover fell on the same day -- Nisan 14 -- in 33 AD.
Now the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes is the day that immediately follows the celebration of the passover, which is Nisan 15 or Day 1 of the seven-day festival. Note that Nisan 15 would also be the second of the eight consecutive days that the Jews were obliged to eat unfermented cakes, but Day 1 of the festival, which means that Nisan 21 would be the eighth day of the eight consecutive days that the Jews were obliged to eat unfermented cakes, or Day 7 of the seven-day festival.
Considering the fact that the Jews were obliged to celebrate the Passover on Nisan 14, this means that they were to slaughter the passover victim -- a lamb -- "between the two evenings," meaning that the passover lamb was to be killed after sundown on the evening when Nisan 13 ended and Nisan 14 began (about 6:00 pm), but before sundown on the following evening when Nisan 14 ended and Nisan 15 began (about 6:00 pm).
This is what the Bible says:
"And it must continue under safeguard by you until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings." (Exodus 12:6)
The "first month" on the Hebrew calendar is Nisan. As for the passover victim, it was to be slaughtered "on the fourteenth day of the [first] month," that is to say, on Nisan 14, "between the two evenings":
"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening." (Exodus 12:18)
Beginning with the Passover, unfermented cakes were to be eaten for eight consecutive days from Nisan 14 to Nisan 21, with the first day being the day when the Passover was celebrated followed by the seven-day-long festival of unfermented cakes, with Day 1 of the festival being the second day and Day 7 of the festival being the eighth day.
"'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the two evenings is the passover to Jehovah. And on the fifteenth day of this month is the festival of unfermented cakes to Jehovah. Seven days you should eat unfermented cakes. On the first day you will have a holy convention occur. No sort of laborious work may you do.'" (Leviticus 23:5-7)
Exodus 12:15, 18, goes on to introduce a Sabbath, the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, to wit: "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening."
Every year, as we did today, April 5, 2012, Jehovah's Witnesses observe the Memorial of Christ's Death on the day that corresponds to Nisan 14 on the Hebrew calendar for that year, the day on which the Bible indicates Moses led the exodus of the Hebrew people out of Egypt back in 1513 BC, who became the nation of Israel.
What I would like to know is do the WT deny this or not ?
Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses would not deny that Jesus did not celebrate the Passover on Nisan 15, because Jesus would have celebrated the Passover with his apostles on Nisan 14 in harmony with the Scriptures, as did the rest of the Jews back in 33 AD.
What I do not wish to do is get in to a discussion with my family or other JW's on this and be wrong about the WT stance, but I have no access to WT lit to check.
Stick to the scriptures I provide above and you will not be wrong about the stance of Jehovah's Witnesses with respect to the Jesus' having celebrated the Passover on Nisan 14 as was required under the Law of Moses.
When it is put to me in the next few days that I should be attending the Memorial, which it will be, I wish to be forearmed, hopefully able to say that it is plain to me all christians should partake, but also, I would love to say that they have their "celebration"on the wrong day, but I am not sure of my ground on the latter.
You may, of course, have your own beliefs as to the rightness of all Christians partaking of the emblems at the Memorial of Christ's Death and your family members would have to understand that your beliefs differ from their's, but you would be mistaken to claim that the celebration of the Memorial of Christ's Death is being observed on the wrong day, since all Jehovah's Witnesses observe the Memorial on the day of Jesus' death, namely, on the day that corresponds to Nisan 14.
@shepherd:
The bible itself does not agree on the day, so you are unlikely to [persuade] a JW. However, it seems likely they are celebrating on the correct day, Nisan 14, the day before the passover, although JW's wrongly think that Jesus also celebrated the Passover first. Even if they have the day right they still ignore his instructions to partake.
I didn't quite get what you were saying here, @shepherd, as to our celebrating the Memorial of Christ's Death "on the correct day, Nisan 14," because in the second part of your statement here you added the words, "the day before the passover," which suggests that you are of the opinion -- or might be of the opinion -- that the day after Nisan 14 -- Nisan 15 -- is when the Passover is to be celebrated, which contradicts the first part of your statement. Nisan 14 is the correct day for the celebration of the Passover. Consequently, Nisan 15 is never the correct day for the celebration of the Passover.
@mP:
the mistake between john and the synoptics is because different traditions celebrated the spring equinox celebration on slightly different days.
Forget about when "different traditions" may have celebrate the Passover. The question the OP asked has to do with when Jesus and his apostles celebrated the Passover, and, according to the Bible, Jesus and his apostles celebrated the Passover on Nisan 14 as was required under the Law of Moses.
lets not forget jesus doesnt actually stay dead for three full days in either. fri night [crucifixion], sat burial, sunday morning [resurrection] is not three days inside the earth.
How is any of this relevant to the question posed by the OP? Although this last point of yours about Jesus not actually being dead "for three full days" isn't relevant to the OP's question, this expression, "three days and three nights," is actually the same as the expression "three days" used by the Jews, which never means "three full days" or 72 hours, but means "on the third day" or "over the course of three days."
For example, at 1 Kings 12:5, King Rehoboam, the king of Israel, tells Jeroboam, who eventually became the king of Judah, to go away and return to him in "three days" as he gave consideration to his request to lighten the burden that the king had been putting on the people, and we note that at 1 Kings 12:12 states that it was "on the third day" that Jeroboam and the people returned to King Rehoboam to learn what he had decided over the course of this three-day period.
@binadub:
THIS IF FOR FOLKS REALLY INTERESTED IN BIBLICAL STUDY: ...
The Essenes followed a solar calendar rather than a lunar calendar of the Jerusalem Temple Jews (Pharisees and Sadducees). Consequently they celebrated the Passover on the 14th day of Nisan (which became the 15th after sundown) a couple of days earlier than the Temple Jews did the year Jesus died, on a Wednesday according to early historical documents.
I would recommend that you find a Hebrew calendar on the 'net for 3973 AM, which corresponds to 33 AD on the Julian and Gregorian calendars, and specifically find the 14th day of the month of Nisan, and you will notice that Nisan 14 did not fall in this year on a Wednesday, but, rather, Nisan 14 fell on a Friday, on the day before the seventh day of the week, which is when the weekly sabbath was observed.
To prove this, just review what the Bible says at John 19:31 as to the reason the Jews had requested Pilate to hasten the deaths of any of the men still alive by breaking their legs so that their dead bodies might be taken away. It says that these bodies were hanging "upon torture stakes" on Preparation, and that the Jews did not wish them to remain there "on the Sabbath," which means that the day after Preparation must have been the seventh day when the weekly Sabbath was observed, but this is not all John 19:31 says. It says also that "that Sabbath was a great one," but why did John describe the weekly Sabbath as "a great one"?
This is because the day after Preparation -- no matter the day on which Preparation falls during the week -- is always Day 1 of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, which is also a Sabbath. Thus, with the day after Preparation being a Sabbath and that day also being the seventh day when the weekly Sabbath was observed, Nisan 15 in 3973 AM would have been a "great" Sabbath, a double Sabbath.
According to the records, Jesus’ arrest, trial and conviction covered parts of 3 days, not one day overnight (which makes a whole lot more sense). Evidently he observed Passover on the date of the Essenes (Wednesday), was arrested and tried on Thursday, and hung on Friday, dying about 3pm when the first lamb was slaughtered in the temple on the 14th, before sundown when the Temple Passover began at Sundown, the beginning of Nisan 15.
According to what records? This chronology from which you're quoting contradicts the Bible. You refer to a "Temple Passover" as if there exists a different Passover at the temple than the Passover celebrate by the rest of the Jews, which I assure you there was only the one Passover, and back in 33 AD, this Passover was observed on Nisan 14, not on Nisan 15. Where I do agree is in what it says about Jesus being "hung on Friday and dying about 3pm."
(JWs celebrate it the 13th day when evening becomes the 14th.)
This isn't true. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate the Passover at all, but on the same day that corresponds to the day on which the Jews celebrated the Passover you will find Jehovah's Witnesses observing the Memorial of Christ's Death, which is never on the 13th day, but on the 14th day of the first month (Nisan) on the evening when Nisan 13 ends and Nisan 14 begins (about 6:00 pm).
The historical documents are: 1) The Syrian doctrinal teachings of the Apostles, Didascalia Apostolorium of the 3rd century; 2) Didache (attributed to the apostles, beginning of the 2nd century); Epiphanium of Salamis (ca. 380 AD); 4) Victorinus of Pettau (died a martyr 304 AD); 5) The Ethiopian book of Adam (Christian [apocryphal] writings).
I don't believe any of these "historical documents" can stand up to the scrutiny of the gospel writers, and your mention of several non-canonical sources, including some apocryphal writings, is, in my opinion, suspect. And studying any one of these documents is not the same as studying the Bible.
Here’s the quote from the Didache):
The obvious reason why the primitive Church in Jerusalem altered the Jewish weekly fast days (Monday and Thursday) to Wednesday and Friday, was because on Wednesday Jesus was taken prisoner (cf. Jesus’ saying: "When the bridegroom will be taken away, they shall fast on that day" (Mk 2:20 and on Friday when he died.
This is an interpretation that is in conflict with the Bible, because for Jesus Nisan 14 was a long, event-filled day: He had celebrated the Passover with his apostles that evening and after having instituted the Lord's Evening Meal with them, they had all gone outside -- Jesus telling them to bring the two swords they had with them so that it could be proved that although his group was armed, Jesus had voluntarily surrendered to those that he knew were coming to arrest him that very evening -- and Jesus was arrested and tried by the Sanhedrin in the evening hours of Nisan 14, by Pilate in the morning hours of Nisan 14, by Herod Antipas, and again by Pilate until he did about 3:00 pm, and all on this on this one Passover day, Nisan 14.
And here is a gem that none of the Gospel writers picked up on (Paul later did):
Regardless which day of the week that Nisan 14/15 fell on, which varied, according to the Law the following Sunday must begin the Festival of First Fruits (Feast of Weeks) which began the counting of 50 days to Pentecost. This particular year, Nisan 14/15 fell on Friday, which made Sunday the third day later. Jesus rose on the [...] third day, which was the first day of the Festival of First Fruits. Fifty days later was Pentecost.
It is not true that no matter the day on which Nisan 14/15 fell that the Law of Moses proscribed the following Sunday as the day when the Feast of Weeks would be celebrated, and it is not true that the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, which you refer to here as "the Festival of First Fruits," is just another name for the Festival of Weeks, which you refer to here as "the Feast of Weeks." I also have no idea what it is that you say Paul "picked up on."
What is true is that the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes always fell on the day after the Passover, which means that Day 1 of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes which the day that always follows the Passover, and since Passover is always celebrated on Nisan 14, then the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes would be Nisan 15.
Furthermore, on Day 2, that is to say, on the second day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, the high priest would be required to wave a sheaf of the barley firstfruits to and fro before Jehovah at the temple. Why is this fact significant? Because Day 2 is always Nisan 16, "the day after the sabbath," referring to the Festival of Unfermented Cakes, and after counting seven weeks, the following day would be the Sivan 6, which is Pentecost, the day on which the Festival of Weeks is celebrated, for Pentecost means "50th day." (Leviticus 23:15, 16; Deuteronomy 16:9, 10)
Tradition held that the first Pentecost was when Moses came down from the mountain and found the Israelites making a golden calf. According to the scripture, he threw down the stone tablets and ordered the Levites to slaughter the idolatrous Jews. It says that 3000 died on that day.
Well, the Bible trumps tradition, at least it does for me. Exodus 19:1-3 indicates that it was "in the third month" after the sons of Israel had come out of Egypt that "they came into the wilderness of Sinai." They left Egypt on Nisan 14 and "in the third month," some 49 days after they had left Egypt, Moses went up into the mountain as the sons of Israel made their encampment in front of the mountain. This 49th day was Sivan 3. The following day, Moses comes back down from the mountain and is given two days to sanctify the people, "today and tomorrow," which would be Sivan 4 and Sivan 5 that they may prove ready "on the third day," or Sivan 6, when that morning all of the "thunders and lightnings" from Jehovah began. (Exodus 19:10, 11, 16)
Exodus 24:18 indicates that it was some 40 days after Moses had gone back up into the mountain to receive the Law that the people became restless and decided to make a golden calf. (Exodus 32:1-4, 7, 8) Thus, "the first Pentecost" could not have been Sivan 6, but would have been some 40 days after Sivan 6, for it was 40 days after Moses had gone up into the mountain to receive the Law that the people had decide to make for themselves a golden calf to worship.
On the last Pentecost, 50 days after Jesus death, when the spirit was poured out, it says 3000 were saved.
The second day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes -- Nisan 16 -- is the day on which Jesus was resurrected, and seven weeks after Nisan 16, would be Sivan 6, or Pentecost.
@Phizzy:
Thanks for your answers, all of yours was new to me Binadub, so thanks. The WT and the JW's seem confused about the only "celebration" they have each year. Muddle-headed lot, aren't they ?
Are Jehovah's Witnesses confused about what things we believe? Perhaps some of us are confused, but not all of us are. For example, I am not confused.
@djeggnog
