@Perry what part of Psalms 22 refers to Jesus or his cruxifiction ?

by mP 3 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  mP

  If you read the whole chapter from an Hebrew source you will see for yourself it does not even mention spear or piercing or anything that can be remotely connected to Jesus unfortunate end.

  http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2622.htm

  .	12 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.	23 I will declare Thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I praise Thee.
  ?? ??????????, ??????? ???????; ????????? ?????? ????????????.	13 Many bulls have encompassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
  ?? ?????? ????? ???????; ???????, ????? ????????.	14 They open wide their mouth against me, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
  ?? ????????? ??????????????-- ??????????????, ????-??????????: ????? ??????, ??????????; ?????, ???????? ?????.	15 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; {N} my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine inmost parts.
  ?? ?????? ?????????, ??????, ???????????, ???????? ??????????; ?????????-????? ??????????????.	16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my throat; and Thou layest me in the dust of death.
  ?? ???? ??????????, ?????????: ????? ????????, ????????????; ????????, ????? ?????????.	17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.
  ?? ???????? ????-??????????; ?????? ?????????, ???????-???.	18 I may count all my bones; they look and gloat over me.
  ?? ?????????? ??????? ?????; ?????-?????????, ????????? ??????.	19 They part my garments among them, and for my vesture do they cast lots.
  ? ???????? ??????, ???-????????; ??????????, ??????????? ???????.	20 But Thou, O LORD, be not far off; O Thou my strength, hasten to help me.
  ?? ????????? ??????? ????????; ??????-??????, ??????????.	21 Deliver my soul from the sword; mine only one from the power of the dog.
  ?? ????????????, ?????? ???????; ???????????? ?????? ??????????.	22 Save me from the lion's mouth; yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen do Thou answer me.
  ?? ?????????? ??????? ???????; ???????? ????? ???????????.

  - v16 is not even close to describing anything related to the prophecy that Jesus bones would not be broken. The text does not say that.

  - The chapter does not mention Jesus by name or even say the Messiah. I fail to see how anyone could honestly connect the character and the text as related.

  - v19 yes Jesus had his garments stolen, but then again im guessing a fair assumption would be that all crucification victims had the same treatment. After all a dead man on the cross doesnt need his clothes, watch or anything.

  Lets be honest this is not prophecy about Jesus. If i am wrong then please point out why, with Bible scriptures, inline and commentary. If God really wanted to demonstrate marvellous prophecy, he could write out the prophecies in clear text without any vagueness. This scripture doesnt cut it. Its really sad and pathetic that anyone would honestly use this as a prime example of prophecy, when it really is about as clear as a horoscope from the newspaper or internet.

  You previously mentioned that Jesus life and death forfilled hundreds of prophecies, i would be very interested in examining but a few.

  Lets start at the beginning where in the OT does it prophecy that Jesus will be born in Bethlehem ? Please quote all scriptures inline here to save everyone the trouble of looking up the scriptures.
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  Band on the Run

  The Psalmist wrote for his generation. During certain points in my life, I can idenitfy myself with his words. Recently I read a NT scholar, Ehrman?, who said that new religions, such as Christianity, had no heft in the Roman world. Sort of the way New Age believers are viewed as jerks today. Christianity had transformed itself from its Jewish roots. Appropriating the OT, and shifting all Jewish commentaries to Christian prophecy fulfilled gave Christianity the cachet of one of the most ancient religions in the Roman world. Judaism was respected by many people. It had a certain status that Christianity totally lacked.

  If the Bible was only prophecy, I don't believe the Bible or any sacred scriptures would have any cultural weight. It is precisely the identification with what the writers describe, human conditions, that allow us to project our own feelings and e motions onto these myths-even if the myth is an actual fact.

  Most of the Psalms are soaring and brutally honest about being human. Add cultural tradition. I was very, very ill for a while. This Psalm and the Suffering Servant portion of Isaish spoke to me in a new way. Only when I became ill, did I read Job in consecutive verses. I cried so hard. Some human so very long ago wrote more movingly than I ever could and articulated my agony. It is beautiful if you omit the opening story about God and Satan gambling over Job. These writings prob. became sacred b/c of the power of the writing and what it touches in any human. I've read the Gita and the UPanishads, some Buddhist lit-they are similar in the universality of the stories.

  Of course, Jesus was fully human so Christians could identify with this Psalm. I think it is borderline crazy to believe that David or some other author so many generations before knew the details of Jesus. We hear of free will. Prophecy would make us mere puppets. What would Christianity do without Judas and the crucifixion leading to resurrection and the Second Coming. Yes, Jesus' specific details are missing. Any crucified person could identify with this passage.
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  Phizzy

  "I think it is borderline crazy to believe that.......some......author so many generations before knew the details of Jesus" .

  I agree B.O.R, but that is exactly what the writer of the Gospel of Matthew claims, he spends most of his book trying to force the O.T scriptures of his choice in to his version of the life of Jesus.

  His motive in so doing, as he ,and perhaps others, in a smoke filled room in the 80's or 90's of the 1st century, as they put together their book, must have been as you rightly say, to give the new religion, the cult of Jesus, an appeal to all the Roman empire by giving it some "provenance".

  Such an agenda puts in doubt the veracity of much that he/they wrote sadly, so we cannot be sure what Jesus really said or did.
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  Finkelstein

  Good point mP

  Perry's lack of critical thinking skills comes through on so many thread topics he starts.

  I think it is borderline crazy to believe that.......

  Now there 's something closer to the Truth !

  Rational analytical thinking upon information is not part of a believing religionists, circumventing information to support their beliefs is though.