Is it reasonable for God to expect us to have faith today?

by yadda yadda 2 5 Replies latest jw friends

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  yadda yadda 2

  If Jesus' own apostles had little faith and the apostle Thomas refused to believe Jesus had been resurected until he saw him, how can we be expected to have faith nearly 2,000 years later?

  Jesus made a special effort to help doubting Thomas believe, getting Thomas to put his fingers into his wound, etc. It was only then that Thomas said "My Lord and my God." If Jesus did that to help remove the doubts of one of his own apostles, why would Jesus not do something similar today to remove the doubts of untold agnotics and skeptics and atheists? Its much harder for us to believe than for Thomas.

  I don't think it would be just at all for God to annihilate anyone at Armageddon unless they are given a final opportunity to believe in him, simply because it is too hard to have faith today. Jesus said when he returns "will he find the faith on the earth?"

  All the modern-day doubting Thomas', who are probably the majority of humankind, need something miraculous to help them believe. Only after that could any destruction of them be justified, surely. Everywhere a person looks he sees reasons for having faith attacked by such things as evolution theory, atheism, apathy. Why would God destroy forever at Armageddon an otherwise good person who listens to their conscience but who finds it almost impossible to have faith?

  How could God's sovereignty be vindicated by his wiping out the lives of literally billions of persons because they had no faith or had put their faith in the wrong thing, without first giving them the evidence they feel they need to believe? Surely a God of love would do that, would do everything he could first to avoid having to kill all those faithless, godless persons? It doesn't seem reasonable to expect everyone to fully believe based only on what is read in ancient writings. The very fact they are so ancient makes them inherently very difficult to trust. Unless revelation is personally experienced it is technically only hearsayand should be viewed with suspicion.

  Anyone else wonder about such things?
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  Fernando

  Hey yadda yadda 2!

  I enjoyed your well written and reasoned post, and believe you raise valid points.

  My experience and ongoing journey has led me to these current opinions:

  Armageddon may mean something completely different to what all religionists say. The Watchtower being one of the most erroneous.

  Personally I see three or four groups of people in scripture namely:

  • "the saved" (righteous by imputation)
  • "the not yet saved" (lost or unrighteous)
  • "the never will be saved" (damned or wicked/evil)
  • and the perfect (absolutely righteous) namely Jesus, Adam and Eve (before their fall), and those humans after the recreation of all things

  I have a very strong sense that God is bending over backwards to save almost every human even after death, and that he really has got it all covered.

  To me Jesus seemed only to take issue with the religious leaders who I believe fit the classification of evil/wicked due to their "militant ignorance" and "malignant self-righteousness" (Psychiatrist Morgan Scott Peck's criteria). I would suggest that the barbaric Roman rulers may not have fitted this measure of evil/wickedness.

  At any rate it does not belong to us to judge anyone's final destiny by our limited insights and arbitrary standards. Most of the most evil persons I have ever met, are in the Watchtower. A high percentage of these are in the Watchtower's ruling religious clergy class. However I have made peace with the possibility that God may choose to allow them to fall so hard that they have a miraculous change of heart and he is legally able to save them - even although presently I NEVER EVER want to see them again.

  On faith:

  From my experience this is a condition granted by God to ordinary individual humans where our spiritual eyes can see and our spiritual ears can hear. It is a free gift available to any that pursue God's message the full "unabridged gospel" (Rom 10:16,17). At the same time I do wish I had the faith to move (physical and spiritual) mountains and bring instant healing to those in need. I believe it is a journey though, and I look forward to growing in faith over the next weeks, months and years.

  I was fortunate to be granted a brief out-of-body and otherworldly experience at age six whereafter I had an immediate grasp of higher dimensions existing above the space-time domain. This was like a small anchor on my very painful 44 year sojourn through the spiritually parched, insane and abusive world of religion. It has now come full circle with my recent spiritual awakening after coming into contact with the gospel message for the first time ever at the end of 2005.
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  Disillusioned Lost-Lamb

  How many teachers throw an incomplete unproven book at a student and then say, "you're on your own, peace out"?

  None (not any real teachers that is), yet this is what jayhoover and jeebus have done.
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  yadda yadda 2

  Thanks for those reponses.

  Dear Fernando, yes reason dictates that God will surely do all he can to save everyone, or at least give every one a second chance. If he is a God of love and we are in his image - and therefore God would not do anything that we in our imperfect and morally corrupted state would find morally repugnant and evil since God's ways are perfect and morally so much superior - then we are must conclude that God will not destroy the ignorant and faithless masses at Armaggedon. Or if he did, they would all get a resurrection. Otherwise God is not a God of love and would not be just and his name not fully vindicated. That's the way I see it.

  I understand that this is also what Charles Taze Russell may have taught, taking the scripture that says "As in Adam all are dying, so in Christ all will be made alive" literally, ie, almost everyone will get a resurrection. If God is going to resurrect the ignorant, faithless hundreds of millions dead in their graves for a second chance, then by the same standard for justice, he cannot permanently destroy the ignorant, faithless humans at Armageddon, as the JW's preach Jehovah will. I cannot accept this version of Jehovah that the JW's preach. The Bible Student website www.reslight.net has articles discussing this. (I'm not associated with the site nor am I a Bible Student).

  Dear disillusioned Lost-Lamb, yes I also agree with you. How can anyone be judged worthy of eternal death since it is inherently almost impossible to fully trust ancient scripture. It is only natural to regard with great skepticism anything anybody writes at any time in history claiming to be speaking for God. Even the gospels are, after all, written decades after the events and not by Jesus own hand. They are not direct personal revelation to the reader. We are asked to trust that the testimony in them is true and reliable, but how can we be reasonably expected to really do that so far removed from the events in time and place? How can we fully believe in the supernatural, miraculous events recorded in them when none have occurred ever since?

  Thus anything short of God providing all mankind with some kind of incredible, global supernatural miraculous event in the future so we can be certain of his existence and that he cares does not seem a fair yardstick to determine our worth now for resurrection and eternal life. I feel a God who truly does care, who truly is love, who truly is merciful and just, and whose ways are truly higher than ours, would surely do this. Maybe this is what Jesus will do on his return, if he returns? This is the kind of God I would be moved to eternally worship and praise, a God whose future revelation is one of love and of helping humanity, not a God whose future revelation is only to destroy us.

  yadda
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  Nambo

  There is a scripture, I remember not where, Jesus actually says something along the lines of, "when the son of man returns, will he find faith on the Earth".

  Dont forget though, that Just as the scriptures say, God does not act unless he sends his prophets to warn the people first, he will send his "Two Witnesses", now these arnt the two Witnesses the JWs would have you belive, the Great Pyramid and the Bible, these will be two actual Witnesses that will perform great signs in the sight of all mankind, Just as God sent Two Witnesses, (Moses and Aron) in the earlier pattern for what is too come, and they performed great signs, and not all the Egyptians where killed by God, mainly just those of Pharohs army that where trying to harm Gods people, so it will be in the end.

  Many people will die of causes in the Great Tribulation, and that will probably be by mans doing anyway, see my Fukishima thread, in fact it says "If God didnt cut short thoses days, no flesh will be saved, so God isnt after wiping everyone off the face of the Earth, just those that the Kings of the Earth gather to fight Gods people, just as in Moses day.

  There will still be Nations on the Earth after the big A, so there will still be peoples of the Nations along with Gods people who I belive will be gathered into Israel, (Once the present imposters have been cleared out).
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  MrFreeze

  Could not agree more. It makes me think of JW's going door-to-door. Is god really going to punish everybody because they ignored some people peddling magazines door-to-door?