Attention all brothers in the Ministry School

The Searcher

The Ministry School beginning the week July 23rd, has for the 3rd talk, "What Is the Meaning of Matthew 21:43?".

w87 3/15 pp. 11-12 - " The Bible directs our attention first to those who make up spiritual Israel. These are the 144,000 who have been chosen by God to share heavenly life with Jesus Christ".

" John’s vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 "bought from among mankind." (it-1 p. 1234)

it-2 pp. 1125-1126 Tribe - "Judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel." Jesus told the apostles that in "the re-creation" they would "sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mt 19:28) And he expressed a similar thought when he made a covenant with his faithful apostles for a Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21) Those "called to be holy ones" are said to judge, not themselves, but "the world." (1Co 1:1, 2; 6:2) Those reigning with Christ form a kingdom of priests. (1Pe 2:9; Re 5:10) Consequently, "the twelve tribes of Israel" mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent "the world" of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge".—Re 20:4.

So, the Israel of God is the 144,000 - but Jesus got confused by saying that the Israel of God would be judged by the Israel of God?????

Revelation 7:4 shows that the heavenly priesthood would be taken out of the nation of Israel, and up to heaven to rule over the rest of the nation who were not taken to heaven.

Bobcat

Greetings Searcher:

Analysis mode ON

w87 3/15 pp. 11-12 - "The Bible directs our attention first to those who make up spiritual Israel. These are the 144,000 who have been chosen by God to share heavenly life with Jesus Christ".

Underlined part = Unsupported assertion

"John's vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb (whom natural Israel had rejected) revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 "bought from among mankind." (it-1 p. 1234)

Underlined part = Failure to read context. 144,000 is "out of" twelve tribes (as you pointed out). Great Crowd and priests are "out of" nations, tribes, etc. The group "out of" is smaller than the group(s) they come out of. (Rev 5:9; 7:9) It would be more accurate to say that Revelation revealed the number taken out of spiritual Israel to be 144,000.

it-2 pp. 1125-1126 Tribe - "Judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel." Jesus told the apostles that in "the re-creation" they would "sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mt 19:28) And he expressed a similar thought when he made a covenant with his faithful apostles for a Kingdom. (Lu 22:28-30) ...

... It is not reasonable that Jesus meant that they would judge the 12 tribes of spiritual Israel later mentioned in Revelation, for the apostles were to be part of that group. (Eph 2:19-22; Re 3:21) ...

1st Underlined part = Logical fallacy - Appeal to Ridicule

2nd Underlined part = Failure of logic. Why would the apostles (the judges) being part of that group, rule out the idea that those being judged were also part of that group? When Israel had judges (in the book of judges), did that mean that the rest of the Jews were not really Jews?

... Those "called to be holy ones" are said to judge, not themselves, but "the world." (1Co 1:1, 2; 6:2) ...

The context of 1 Corinthians 6:1-6 says that the holy ones are expected to be judges of themselves. So this statement fails to make a logical point. In fact, that they are judges of the world is used as proof by Paul that they should also judge among themselves. So 1Cor 6:2 is being used contrary to the context it comes from.

Those reigning with Christ form a kingdom of priests. (1Pe 2:9; Re 5:10) Consequently, "the twelve tribes of Israel" mentioned at Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 evidently represent "the world" of mankind who are outside that royal priestly class and whom those sitting on heavenly thrones will judge".-Re 20:4.

Fails to take into account the usage of the term "kingdom." Does the term "God's Kingdom" mean that no one besides Him is part of it? The 'ten horns receive a kingdom for one hour.' (Rev 17:12) Does that mean that their constituents are not part of that kingdom? David had a kingdom. Did that mean that the rest of the Jews were no longer part of it?

Those ruling can be described as a kingdom or having a kingdom without implying that those ruled over are not part of it. The Society's false logic here appears to be a fallacy of composition.

There is that word "evidently" again. If the point being made is so obviously true, why hedge it with "evidently"?

And then there is what you said: If all the above is true, why would Jesus have made such a simplistic error of statement? Why does the Watchtower have to go behind Jesus to correct him? They treat Jesus like he was some politician who is always making unwise statements that they have to go behind and clean up. It says something about the quality of faith the WT has in Jesus.

Take Care Searcher

Also, having watched the new DVD release from the convention, "Walk By Faith, Not By Sight", the implications are clear to all who reason on the Bible.

Listener

I agree with you The Searcher and thanks for the well referenced comments Bobcat.

Attention all brothers in the Ministry School

The Searcher

The Searcher

Bobcat

breakfast of champions

Quendi

The Searcher

Listener

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