I have heard some people say that Randy Watters/Dogpatch has flip-floped on Hellfire Torment

slimboyfat

1. I don't think so

2. So what even if he did change his mind?

3. He never claimed to be "spirit directed"

4. He is easy to contact if you want to ask him something directly

5. You are old enough to know better

I have never believed in hellfire and torment in my life. Nor have I ever believed in the early history of the earth as told in Genesis. I drew dinosaurs as a kid and paleontology and Egyptology were my favorite subjects at about the age of 10 or 11. "Adam and Eve" were also a bit much for me.

All the multitude of articles I have written on doctrine (mostly in the early 80s) remain on my site that I have ever written, and I still support them as accurate. But they are, for the most part, written to clarify history and basic evangelical doctrine (I was a Foursquare pastor for several years after leaving the JWs) for the purpose of correcting the erroneous views of the WT on basic Bible doctrines. It doesn't necessarily mean I believed them. And I never lied about it - It's just that no one ever asked! I didn't believe everything Foursquare taught, either. My philosophy is to "love people more and believe them (their philosophies that are non-verifiable) less." :-))

I'm not really fascinated by philosophies men invent in their heads. But I do love people, I think churches can be the best help that people in need can get (assuming you find a good one) and I do love what I know about Jesus, and gave my life to him as a small child at 9 years old, and still feel his Spirit within me. Perhaps it sounds subjective to you, but that's me. Remember, I grew up in the 60s as a hippie, and almost all of us saw Jesus as a hero or Lord, but we didn't care less about churches or man-made doctrines. It was a more personal, spiritual thing, and still is.

The article found at: http://www.randallwatters.org/hellcomp.htm was in response to a challenge by a Carlin Venus, a disfellowshipped "anointed" JW who challenged me on whether the early Christians believed in hell. I spent close to 6 months comparing the two most common views of hell in the evangelical and cult worlds, and ended up created a side-by-side comparison of the best quotes on the classics, "Death and the Afterlife" by Robert Morey, and "The Fire That Consumes" by Edward W. Fudge. Both are excellent works of scholarship, and I read Fudge's book that Carlin sent me and almost felt that it represented what the first century Christian believed, until I read Morey's book, which addresses some more critical issues that Fudge did not bring out. The purpose was to prove to a JW that the early church very much DID believe in a fiery hel... sinners on the grill, where Jehovah and his angels would take delight for all eternity in seeing sinners roast in Gehenna. The point in writing the article was to prove that the Pharisees AND the early Christians, including Jesus, DID believe in a fierty hell as described in the Talmud, with minor variations.

I would never in my life believe in such a horrid concept that would make God out to be worse than Hitler. Even as a Baptist in my youth. Delighting in watching torture forever? Pretty sick if you ask me. But the concept did not originate from Jesus OR the Pharisees, it was part of certain strains of Greek philosophy centuries earlier, and of course pagan cultures before that. They already had well-developed concepts of Gehenna, Tartarus, the Lake of Fire, Sheol, immortality of the soul, etc. that was simply borrowed by the Pharisees long before Jesus came along.

Leolaia has made some great posts on the Talmud and where many so-called Bible doctrines originated. It's a little deep, but look up some of her posts, she's an amazing writer and well-versed in such topics. BTW I wrote that back in the early 80s, and although siding with Morey, Dr. Fudge liked it and actually gave me permission to use it without copyright violation a year AFTER I wrote ity, if I would send him two copies of the book.

If you find it too small in type to read, you can get the book at: http://www.freeminds-store.com/books/hell-a-critique-of-two-different-views-traditionalism-vs-conditionalism.html

Another example of the fact that 95% of what the Watchtower "says" the early Christians (pre-Constantine) believed is completely lies. They lived in a whole different world of demons and torture and cosmology back then.

Scott77

I have heard some people say that Randy Watters/Dogpatch has flip-floped on Hellfire Torment

booker-t

If you have 'heard from some People', and its proved be correct, it does not matter. I cannot and will never blame him. On the contrary, Mr. Randy is not part of that infamous '144,000' so called co-rulers who are Watchtower-sponsored or endorsed to rule with Jesus Christ. Instead dwelling on what those pro-JWs have told you, please, think of the hundreds and perhaps thousands of Jehovah's Witnesses whom Mr. Randy has helped to understand TATT. Think about it what Freeminds.org has accompolished without the benefits of extensive funding associated with the Watchtower, a large world publishing and real estate empire. If Mr. Randy was to claim the end of the world as coming tomorrow and it does not happen, I will give him a freepass for the courage to try to predict it. Afterall, he is not a prophet. Got it?

Scott77

Dogpatch

Thanks guys!

Randy

I have heard some people say that Randy Watters/Dogpatch has flip-floped on Hellfire Torment

booker-t

booker-t

Iamallcool

slimboyfat

Dogpatch

Scott77

Dogpatch

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