Stalin, Atheists:Theists; Ur Thoughts?--PO

by patio34 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  patio34

  Hi All,

  In the book The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S, there is this statement on page 2:

  To deflect the horrible guilt off the shoulders of their own faith, religionists have pointed to supposedly secular ideologies such as Communism and Nazism as oppressors and murderers of the people. However, few realize or acknowledge that the originators of Communism were Jewish (Marx, Lenin, Hess, Trotsky)

  (Jewish Encyclopedia, 1905, 418; Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 1943, "Hess, Moses,""Soviet Russia.")

  and that the most overtly violent leaders of both bloody movements were Roman Catholic (Hitler, Mussolini, Franco) or Easter Orthodox Christian (Stalin), despotic and intolerable ideologies that breed fascistic dictators. In other words, these movesments were not "atheistic," as religionists maintain.

  So, does anyone know anything about Stalin being a Christian when he became a tyrant?

  What do you think of the assertion of the author that it's a ploy that religionists use to deflect the bloodshedding of the Christians (and Islam, etc.)?

  It seems to me that it's credible to suppose that religion can and does cause war and killing, but atheism doesn't cause or promote anything because it's essentially a vacuum of belief.

  Another thing, is that perhaps the comparison is not possible because maybe 99% of humans have been religious, so how could it be compared with the supposed small amount of atheists?

  Any thoughts?

  

  WTBS: Quit peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining.
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  bigboi

  It seems to me that it's credible to suppose that religion can and does cause war and killing, but atheism doesn't cause or promote anything because it's essentially a vacuum of belief.

  Wars and killing are a part of the HUMAN condition and were probably waged in some form long before humans actually came up with the idea of civilization and with religion as a part or consequence of it. Since atheists are human one has to assume that even they are susceptible to the various social plights the world has been experiencing probably since mankind's earliest ancestor began to walk upright.

  I don't really see beliefs as a cause of war. IMO, it's an excuse that societies use to get rid of thier enemies or take something that doesn't belong to them.

  ONE.....

  bigboi
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  expatbrit

  Bigboi:

  Agree with you 100%.

  War is the natural state of humankind, waged eternally and continuously in all spheres, military, economic, social.

  Belief systems are merely weapons in the war.

  Expatbrit
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  patio34

  Good points Bigboi. After all, war exists in all other forms of nature, from the tiniest viruses and microbes to larger creatures. Their wars are for food supplies and territories.

  Still, religion does not prevent war, but often accelerates it. However, one author made the point (Guns, Germs & Steel)that before societies were large enough to support a police force, xenophobia was the norm. If two different groups met in a forest, someone was liable to die. So, killing is part of not only being human, but being of this earth.

  Does anyone know if Stalin was, in fact, an atheist or theist?

  Pat

  

  WTBS: Quit peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining.
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  waiting

  Survival of the fittest, eh? I agree.

  However, setting that concept aside for a moment - it doesn't explain the WTC bombing - or a good portion of our wars.

  Religion & money are the primary goals of the killing. Acquisition - you got it & I want it. Or killing for God - He hates you & I will kill you.

  It's been brought out that much of reason there's wars over in the "stan" countries is oil interests. They got it - and the powerful countries want to make sure that they continue to receive it at a decent price. Not much about religion.

  Throw in the concept of religious zeal, and the formula is bakin' in the oven - waiting for an opportunity to kill.

  It is a form of Survival of the Fittest - but not much to do with mental or phsyical prowness.

  Thanks, Pat, for a good topic!

  waiting
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  Abaddon

  Chimps wage war. Honest, they do.

  However, Bonobo chimps, a slightly smaller sub-species, have a completely different society to ordinary chimps; they use sex, as distinct from aggression, to negotiate socailly.

  So, we can't blame our genes that much, as chimps and Benobos are equally removed from us, genetically speaking.

  I think the author was probably trying to say that these secular atheistic leaders were raised in a religious environment, so that's where they were imprinted with a moral framework that allowed them to act in the way they did.

  The best that can be said of that theory is that it is true that they WERE raised in a religious environment, and a culture shaped by religion, but whether that is a causal link to their behaviour? You can't say, there's no evidence to support the assertion.
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  patio34

  Thanks Waiting for the thoughts. Maybe the defense & counter charge by the author is driven by the supposition by religionists that everyone will be immoral and amoral without religion.

  Abaddon, you said

  However, Bonobo chimps, a slightly smaller sub-species, have a completely different society to ordinary chimps; they use sex, as distinct from aggression, to negotiate socailly.

  So, we can't blame our genes that much, as chimps and Benobos are equally removed from us, genetically speaking

  It seems to me based on my reading, that humans may retain the aggressive behavior as possibly the chimps because we are not descended from them, but from a common ancestor when humans split, and there may be the aggressive behavior. I have read also about chimps (or apes of some sort) waging war on another camp (tribe?) and even taking a young female for their own troop (ah, i think that's the correct term).

  Pat
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  Carmel

  Oh contrare, War is not and has not been the "normal human condition". It is the condition of the misfit and malcontent. The vast majority of wars in the past are conceived and conducted by a small minority of the human populace. Warriors may be supported by taxation of the masses, but even that is imposed by those who believe in "military intelligence". Given a choice, 99% of the people would rather live in a harmonious peaceful state.

  carmel
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  waiting

  howdy sweetpea,

  Given a choice, 99% of the people would rather live in a harmonious peaceful state.

  Unprovable statement - but what can you expect from a school professor? I'm taking a college course right now - so I can talk like the average student, eh?

  Who determines who is the "mistfit and malcontent?" The rich most likely will think it's the poor (Russia pre-revolution). etc., etc.,

  The vast majority of wars in the past are conceived and conducted by a small minority of the human populace.

  Agreed and good point.

  Oh contrare

  Oh how Carmel!

  waiting - glad to have sweetpea back.