Watchtower 2/01/02 Study article#1 Was he there?

wokeup

Todays' study article stated in paragraph 6 "Harmonizing the Gospel accounts indicates that only after this traitor was gone did Jesus institute the Memorial of his death." Paragraph 2 cited the 3 gospel accounts including Luke 21:19,20 but conviently excluded verse 21 Why? Because immediately after mentioning the loaf and wine Jesus stated "But look! the hand of my betrayer is WITH ME at the table."
Had Jesus dimissed Judas prior as the Society claims then Jesus would have lied to the apostles. What's your take on this?

cellomould

My take on this:

HOLY SHIT! I didn't know that!

cellomould

"In other words, your God is the warden of a prison where the only prisoner is your God." Jose Saramago, The Gospel According to Jesus Christ

Gopher

Wokeup,

I think you mean Luke chapter 22 instead of chapter 21.

Yes it's really unclear exactly when Judas was asked to leave. Only the account in John 13 tells of Judas being asked to leave. It seems Judas was there for the FIRST part of the meal, with a morsel being dipped -- Jesus' sign about who his betrayer was. But the "morsel eating" wasn't the bread and the wine. The unleavened bread isn't dipped in anything.

So Judas must have been dismissed during the middle of the meal.

That's the best I can make out of it. My alternate take is --- Judas cut off his HAND, left it at the table, and then Jesus could say --- look "his hand" is with me.... Sorry that's probably way too weird.

J.R.Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

stocwach

Mark 14:17-18 says (NLT) "In the evening Jesus arrived with the 12 disciples. As they were sitting around the table eating, Jesus said, 'The truth is, one of you will betray me...'" Then vs. 22 and 23 is where he takes the bread and wine.

Matthew 26:20 "...Jesus sat down at the table with the 12 disciples." Then Jesus in vs. 23 reveals one who is eating with them will betray him. Vs. 25 says "Judas, the one who would betray him, also asked, 'Teacher, I'm not the one, am I?' And Jesus told him, "You have said it yourself.'" Vs. 26 "As they were eating, Jesus took a loaf..."

If you want to "harmonize" Gospel accounts, considerably more evidence points to Judas being there for the institution of the Memorial. Matthew and Mark specifically make no mention of Judas leaving at all, and therefore implies they were all there. Luke specifically says he was there, and John doesn't make mention of the bread and wine at all, but simply that Jesus told Judas to go, but the disciples had no idea what Jesus meant.

Scully

Maybe what they are trying to do is find a way to "justify" being unwelcoming toward people they consider to be apostates.

Jesus sends away Judas, the betrayer, before instituting the "Memorial".

They do consider apostates to be "betrayers", don't they?? So apostates become "The Judas Class", unworthy of sharing in their most sacred occasion.

Makes sense to me.

Love, Scully

AussieMark

My question is....If youre a known and active apostate in the community....would you be allowed into tne KH for the memorial?

Simon

I like the "severed hand" theory Gopher - that would certainly make for a more interesting memorial talk and re-enactment:

PO: It says here 'keep doing this' ... so, Brother Disliked ...
BD: I've decided on reflection that this is no longer the truth (psst Martha ... start the car)

Bang

I would suggest to exJWs to stop saying 'memorial'. There's a few words that JWs use that are just SO JW, like 'ransom', or 'pleasing Jehovah'(appeasing the imaginary beast).
The religion seems so preoccupied with the notion of doing something for a return, betraying the kindness within.

Judas remorse was for a trading loss under the law, "I've killed an innocent man!"
Did Judas follow Christ to learn how to help people ? or was he thinking about what was in it for him - all that talk of the kingdom and stuff - hey, maybe even a little extra now (from the money bag), you know, to be extra cumfy and happy from the hard work of saying 'boo' to people.

The watchtower societies' whole religion is about work and acquirement - the amount of work is even recorded, like Egyptians.

As for whether Judas ate at His table, yeah, I reckon he wasn't a foreigner, but one of the twelve (of Israel), who should "still keep the passover to the LORD". But he went out of 'the house' after having a morsel, so maybe he symbolically rejected the blood of the lamb.

Bang

Nathan Natas

Gopher, I think you may have nascent illumination there...

I think we should do like the Governing Body and take a vote!

Everyone who thinks that Judas left his severed hand at the table, raise your ... er .... hand!

- Nathan Natas, UADNA
(Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America)

Watchtower 2/01/02 Study article#1 Was he there?

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