You Know--Way Off Base Once Again...

by stocwach 8 Replies latest jw friends

stocwach

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We could also say that the apostolic decision on circumcision was "new light." Which, incidently, cause many Jews to stumble out of the truth and become enemies of the torture stake as Judaizers. So, interestingly, in effect the apostles' policy shift stumbled many out of the truth.
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First, you need to read Acts 15:23-24 carefully, and I'll quote the New Living Translation: 'This is the letter they took along with them: This letter is from the apostles and elders, your brothers in Jerusalem. IT IS WRITTEN TO THE GENTILE BELIEVERS in Antioch, Syria, and Silicia. Greetings! We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but THEY HAD NO SUCH INSTRUCTIONS FROM US. So it seemed good to us, having unanimously agreed on our decision, to send you these official representatives, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have risked their lives for the sake of our lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas to tell you what we have decided concerning your question. For it seemed good to the holy spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these requirements...' The apostles were not the ones who initially imposed the idea of circumcision on the Gentiles, only to later flip flop and say it was not necessary! There was no prior circumcision policy whatsoever for the Gentiles!!!!In fact, if you read vs. 5--it explicity points out it was ROGUE MEMBERS OF THE CONVERTED PHARISEES that were saying circumcision was required for the Gentiles! The apostles pointed out their error and resolved the matter quickly and accurately with no reversal of Christian doctrine, no protracted period of confusion, let alone a period of years where a false teaching was promoted and enforced as Christian orthodoxy. The decision withstood the test of time, and it was the correct one. In other words, they didn't first decree that every male Gentile must be circumcised (or in the case of the blood issue--every person must not take any form of blood transfusion) and then 10 years or so later, reverse themselves (as in the case of the blood issue--say it is now okay to take certain fractions of blood with no penalty) without a word of apology to those that had been thrown out of the congregation for noncompliance with the prior, faulty decision. On the other hand, reversing decisions is mainstream with JWs, and a huge reason why so many have left the religion.
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Apostates, though, for the most part, are opposed to any and all abstainence from blood, or any imposition imposed by the Society for that matter. So it is total hogwash that apostates receive new light before Jehovah's people.
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How can you deny that apostates have been punished for views that ultimately became the same views of the Governing Body years later??????? Numerous people were disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the 1914 theology that "this generation would not pass away before all these things occured...", but the Society's view today has proven these apostates to be correct all along!!!!!!!!!! The new light (or whatever you want to call it, i.e. "tacking") that the GB miraculously all of a sudden had revealed to themselves was already manifested in the apostate's views!
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You don't seem to know at all what you are talking about. The apostles had false expectations, that were not realistic or reasonable. But, ultimately their faith led them to a point where their hope was realized. It's the exact same scenario that's being played out today. So, you are right---God doesn't change.
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I wish I had a chart with stick people on it, maybe then your brain would grasp the point here. Those that chose to take blood fractions prior to 1990 because they disagreed with WT policy could be considered to have "false expectations" re: blood policy, and were disfellowshipped for their actions. Years later however these "false expectations" have actually revealed themselves to be true after all, yet many will never return to the organization! If WT was truly God's sole org., he would not allow this anamoly, which is proven in the case of those that were stumbled back in Jesus' day--the passage of time didn't reveal that those that were stumbled were right all along about their doubts of Jesus.
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Your question doesn't make any sense. Do you want to try and re-word it into something coherent?
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Again, your intelligence and discernment level really concerns me. I will try to put this in the simplist of terms for you--you chose to bring up the issue of census as being a stumbling block. What does this have to do with anything?????? Again, I am questioning how God could allow for an apostate to be stumbled for a policy that would later change and prove the apostate to be correct after all! The census would only be relative if you could show that God allowed people to be stumbled because of the census, despite years later the census policy changing that would have proved those that were stumbled correct all along. BOTTOM LINE, YOU CANNOT DO THAT!!!!!!!
Room 215

Stocwatch,
I appreciate your earnestness and temperate, scholarly approach to addressing our mutual friend (You Know). I'm afraid, however, that although he admits to finding several JW teachings and policies ``indefensible'' (his choice of word), he prefers to enwrap himself in the comfy blanket of WTBTS delusions that Brooklyn has woven for him.
The bottom line with him, as with all earnest believers of all faiths, that they believe what they believe because THEY WANT TO. It's as simple-- and in some cases as tragic-- as that.
stocwach

Why have you chosen to ignore my post?
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=23335&site=3
You Know

Why have you chosen to ignore my post?
You are not the only poster that I deal with, and this is not the only thread on the board.
The apostles were not the ones who initially imposed the idea of circumcision on the Gentiles, only to later flip flop and say it was not necessary! There was no prior circumcision policy whatsoever for the Gentiles!
That's true. But Judaism had a very strong influence upon the apostles. That's evident from the fact that Paul found it necessary to go to Jerusalem to hash it out with the apostles since he was out in the Gentile field and knew what was going on. I am aware that the apostles had not made circumcission mandatory, but apparently the prevailing mindset was that is was necessary and for years the apostles allowed that thinking to prevail in the congregations by simply doing nothing. As another example of how deeply entrenched that thinking was at the time is the fact that even after the apostles' decree Peter himself succumbed to fear of man and at one point segregated himself from the Gentiles while in the company of Jewish Christians.
The apostles pointed out their error and resolved the matter quickly and accurately with no reversal of Christian doctrine, no protracted period of confusion, let alone a period of years where a false teaching was promoted and enforced as Christian orthodoxy.
The circumcison issue was the most devisive issue that confronted the congregations. The apostolic decree was not accepted by everyone. That was my point. Many of the Jewish Christians were set in their ways and were stumbled on account of the radical change in view and became apostates. They became what Paul called "the dogs who want to mutilate the flesh."
Numerous people were disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the 1914 theology that "this generation would not pass away before all these things occured...",
That's just plain silly. Back before 1995 no one could say that they knew that the system wasn't going to end before the generation of 80 years passed away. Some may have had strong opinions, but no one could say that they KNEW anything. And, if someone taught something differently back then, then, they were setting themselves up as teachers in competition with the Society for the minds and hearts of the brothers.
Typically, those who are disfellowshipped have taken up the doctrine and teachings of Ray Franz---who is like the modern-day sect of Nicolaus that Christ said was influential in several of the symbolic congregations that would exist during the period leading up to Christ's arrival. Those who are members of the sect imagine that they have some unique insights that the brothers in Brooklyn don't have, all the while parroting the sectarian line of Franz. When the brothers hear the echo of Ray Franz in the brother's protestations and complaints they naturally know they are dealing with someone who has come under Franz's evil influence and they deal with them accordingly.
Those that chose to take blood fractions prior to 1990 because they disagreed with WT policy could be considered to have "false expectations" re: blood policy, and were disfellowshipped for their actions.
And rightly so, just as brothers today who take blood transfusions bring themselves in line for disfellowshipping because they undermine the stance of the brotherhood and create confusion in the minds of doctors just what our beliefs really are. If a person calls themselves one of Jehovah's Witnesses then they come to represent the entire organization. If they adopt beliefs that are significantly different from the beliefs and practices of the rest of the brotherhood then they bring into question whether they can continue to represent the organization. And just like the apostles, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has the right and the obligation to establish what our doctrines and policies are going to be. They also have the right to make changes as they see fit. Especially is that necessary in the complex field of medicine that is constantly changing and presenting us with new challenges to our faith.
Accepting that authority in the organization is not an easy thing for some, and those who openly defy the authority of the Governing Body are viewed as defying Christ's own authority. If, for whatever reason, a person comes to the conclusion that the Watchtower doesn't have authority to establish what Jehovah's Witnesses should teach then they should probably find a new religion.
If WT was truly God's sole org., he would not allow this anamoly, which is proven in the case of those that were stumbled back in Jesus' day--the passage of time didn't reveal that those that were stumbled were right all along about their doubts of Jesus.
Your reasoning is faulty, which no doubt is why you have allowed yourself to be stumbled in the first place. The fact is that God does allow those who represent him to make greivious errors that cause others to stumble. Look at the history of Israel. They were a nation that had an exclusive relationship with Jehovah, and yet many of their kings and prominent men stumbled the entire nation by things that they did. According to your reasoning if Israel was really God's special people, as Jehovah himself claimed, then he would not have allowed their kings to lead them into error.
What also condemns you is that not all of Jehovah's Witnesses allow themselves to be stumbled. Many of us are aware of the Society's errors and shortcomings and yet we continue to support the organization. So, that proves that you could have remained faithful too if you had wanted. Jude says that Jehovah can guard us from stumbling over these things, provided that we allow him to safeguard us. Apostates also prove their evil intent because you are not content to simply be out of the truth yourself. You want to make sure that as many other Witnesses as possible are confronted with the same stumblings blocks that you tripped over. That's why you want to explain to me clearly with diagrams of stick-men action figures exactly how you were up-ended so that you might have the joy of stumbling someone else.
Again, your intelligence and discernment level really concerns me. I will try to put this in the simplist of terms for you--you chose to bring up the issue of census as being a stumbling block. What does this have to do with anything?
LOL! I will explain it to you very simply. David was Jehovah's hand-picked anointed king. The scripture says that Satan over-reached David and against the advice of his own general David ordered a census to be taken. This brought Jehovah's displeasure and resulted in a plauge that killed many of David's subjects. God allowed his anointed one to stumble and fall into Satan's trap and it cost the Israelites dearly who paid the price for David's foolishness.
In the prophecies that apply to spiritual Israel, Jehovah similarly takes his anointed ones to task for stumbling others. However, it doesn't mean that they are not God's sons, just as David was still God's anointed king, it just menas that Jehovah will not give them exemption from punishment. Christ even foretold that during his presence "many will be stumbled." So, there you have it. It's an unfortunate thing that brothers and sisters are stumbled, but it's just the way things are at the moment. In the 13th chapter of Matthew Jesus foretold that at some point his angels would go forth to "collect out of my kingdom ALL THINGS CAUSING STUMBLING." That means that, contrary to your twisted reasoning, there are things of error that cause stumbling and that Jehovah allows such things within the congregations under Christ's kingdom; and, until that time when the angels take care of business, part of our test as Christians is dealing with the things that cause stumbling. Sadly, obviously, many have failed the test. / You Know
You Know

So is that it? Are you even going to acknowledge my reply or are you simply going to slink off? / You Know
NeonMadman

If, for whatever reason, a person comes to the conclusion that the Watchtower doesn't have authority to establish what Jehovah's Witnesses should teach then they should probably find a new religion.
Which is what most of us here have done. If only it were that simple.
Unfortunately, the Watchtower behaves like the "evil slave" and 'beats its brothers' by making false accusations against those who leave, and by enforcing unscriptural shunning against them. Frankly, if they didn't do those things, a lot of the people who post here would be a lot less angry with the organization than we are.
However, since those in charge of the Watchtower know that what they teach is not the truth and cannot stand up to open scrutiny, they use demonization and enforced shunning to silence those who have come to see the "man behind the curtain".
Tom
"The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan
avengers

Maybe we should eat the trolls instead of feeding them?
It's a question we could all think about.
stocwach

You Know: Wrong again.
but apparently the prevailing mindset was that is was necessary and for years the apostles allowed that thinking to prevail in the congregations by simply doing nothing.
Ridiculous! Scripture and verse were the apostles allowed thinking to prevail to their knowledge by simply doing nothing? C'mon You Know! Scripture and verse?! Face it...your key operative word there is "apparently", meaning you are grasping at straws with your creative imagination. Bottom line, there was no "new light" from the apostles, which is the very reason you brought up the circumcision issue in the first place.
circumcison issue was the most devisive issue that confronted the congregations. The apostolic decree was not accepted by everyone. That was my point. Many of the Jewish Christians were set in their ways and were stumbled on account of the radical change in view and became apostates.
Meaningless and irrelevant. There is no parallel to JW's stumbling because of obvious WT error in blood policy, only to have that policy change years later! The Jewish Christians that were stumbled were wrong, bottom line. Nothing came out later that showed the Jewish Christians were right all along did it? Scripture and verse please? Sad that this example is your best defense.
That's just plain silly. Back before 1995 no one could say that they knew that the system wasn't going to end before the generation of 80 years passed away. Some may have had strong opinions, but no one could say that they KNEW anything. And, if someone taught something differently back then, then, they were setting themselves up as teachers in competition with the Society for the minds and hearts of the brothers.
Interesting you would say "that's silly" when the WT has numerous records of people who were disfellowshipped for not adhering to the belief systems, of which the 1914 theology is the foundation for the WT. And absolutely, those that spread their doubts to others look like prophets now don't they? Of course they were in competition, but again, it proves my point that "apostates" can have "light" ahead of the GB, just as with the blood issue of taking fractions pre 1990, yet getting disfellowshipped for it, only to be proven right all along. For you simply to deny that this phenomenon exists shows how truly superficial you really are. Call it what you want, you can't deny it happens, but simply make excuses for why it does.
And rightly so, just as brothers today who take blood transfusions bring themselves in line for disfellowshipping because they undermine the stance of the brotherhood and create confusion in the minds of doctors just what our beliefs really are. If a person calls themselves one of Jehovah's Witnesses then they come to represent the entire organization. If they adopt beliefs that are significantly different from the beliefs and practices of the rest of the brotherhood then they bring into question whether they can continue to represent the organization. And just like the apostles, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has the right and the obligation to establish what our doctrines and policies are going to be.
You sure like to waste time by bringing up meaningless info don't you?
We all know on the board what the policy is of JWs, so we don't need your constant redrivel of it.
Your reasoning is faulty, which no doubt is why you have allowed yourself to be stumbled in the first place. The fact is that God does allow those who represent him to make greivious errors that cause others to stumble. Look at the history of Israel. They were a nation that had an exclusive relationship with Jehovah, and yet many of their kings and prominent men stumbled the entire nation by things that they did. According to your reasoning if Israel was really God's special people, as Jehovah himself claimed, then he would not have allowed their kings to lead them into error.
Yaaaawwwn. Again, you simply are either completely inept at comprehension! Of course God allows his people to stumble others! Read my post again. You bring up in an older post that look at who was stumbled because of Jesus. Again, my point is that that is a meaningless irrelevant analogy, it doesn't prove anything! Those that were stumbled were not later proven correct were they? Nor were those that were stumble by Israel later proven to be correct in their false expectations of God's chosen people! Again, your bogus examples have no parallel to the flip flopping blood issue. I'll tell you what is faulty, it's your reasoning skills!
LOL! I will explain it to you very simply. David was Jehovah's hand-picked anointed king. The scripture says that Satan over-reached David and against the advice of his own general David ordered a census to be taken. This brought Jehovah's displeasure and resulted in a plauge that killed many of David's subjects. God allowed his anointed one to stumble and fall into Satan's trap and it cost the Israelites dearly who paid the price for David's foolishness.
Again, drivel drivel drivel. It simply is not relevant!!! This has nothing to do with WT constant flip flopping on doctrinal issues! Is that the best you have? Sad.
However, it doesn't mean that they are not God's sons, just as David was still God's anointed king, it just menas that Jehovah will not give them exemption from punishment.
LOL! The only reason why the JW religion exists is because of your "anointed Governing Body", which as a whole are responsible for JW doctrine! You are basically saying, so what if the GB falls under Gods punishment, it is still the only true religion! The GB are the ones responsible for creating the religion for what it is today in the first place. You have made comments in the past that the WT will have served its purpose at Armageddon, blah blah blah, etc. The more I hear your thinking you are a religion of one, and not a true JW. You can't be both. If the GB knew your true identity, you would be disfellowhshipped in an instant for your rogue views. Don't you see that you can't be a true JW by default of their own doctrinal belief system you don't 100% adhere to, by your own admission. Therefore, you by default are not part of God's true organization. Why can't you see how bizarre a bird you really are?
bjc2012

You Know,
Christ even foretold that during his presence "many will be stumbled."
He also said at Matthew 18:7: "Woe to the world due to the stumbling blocks! Of course, the stumbling blocks must of necessity come, but woe to the man through whom the stumbling block comes!
Paul associates stumbling with a lack of accurate knowledge. Philippians 1:9,10 reads: "And this is what I continue praying, that your love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment; that you may make sure of the more important things, so that you may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ." At Romans 16:17, he also warns: "Now I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teachings that you have learned and avoid them." Stumbling others is here also associated with inaccurate knowledge, teachings contrary to truth.

So, there you have it. It's an unfortunate thing that brothers and sisters are stumbled, but it's just the way things are at the moment.
The reason many, as you stated, are stumbled is given at Psalms 119:165, which reads: "Abundant peace belongs to those loving your law, and for them there is no stumbling block."
Stumbling is a two way street: those who stumble others lack accurate knowledge and those who are stumbled also lack accurate knowledge. Both will end up in the same place.
In the 13th chapter of Matthew Jesus foretold that at some point his angels would go forth to "collect out of my kingdom ALL THINGS CAUSING STUMBLING." That means that, contrary to your twisted reasoning, there are things of error that cause stumbling and that Jehovah allows such things within the congregations under Christ's kingdom; and, until that time when the angels take care of business,
Not true. What you're looking at is His allowing the development of the situation described at Zechariah 13:8,9 where the organization will be divided into two parts, the two-thirds who are slated for destruction and the one-third that He will save by bringing them through the fire. The angels will deal with the third-part of the organization not the whole of them as two-thirds are not worthy of any consideration. Remember Paul's words at Romans 9:27: "Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved." The majority will not make it.
part of our test as Christians is dealing with the things that cause stumbling.
Does that include accepting your leadership's association with the UN as simply being an error that could cause stumbling when you yourself said in another post that it was spiritual adultery (I believe you said it was marrying the daughter of a foreign god)? I believe that you also mentioned something about 'community guilt' associated with this sin. You are, or should be, aware that this association with the UN is not simply an error, but is what Jesus describes as 'the disgusting thing as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place' from which he said the disciples were to 'flee to the mountains.' Many like you who insist that they are not going to be stumbled away from the orgnization are going to reap the whirlwind of Jehovah's displeasure for not recognizing that the time for fleeing is NOW. Where is the discernment (the full discernment and accurate knowledge that Paul spoke of) that is called for in these most perilous times?
Sadly, many have failed the test.
Failed what test? The test of loyalty to an organization? The real test is loyalty to Jehovah not to an organization. An organization that claims to teach truth but is not, and furthermore, doesn't even recognize this fact, or should I say refuses to recognize this fact, is disloyal to Jehovah. For instance, they have received a ton of information showing that their 1914 teaching is incorrect but they refuse to acknowledge this. They prefer clinging to a falsehood rather than admit they are wrong. Anyone remaining with this organization when he knows the leadership does not 'love God's law,' is not loyal to truth, has failed the test of loyalty.
bjc

You Know--Way Off Base Once Again...

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