12 tribes

maccauk11

how do you answer about the 144000 that come out of the twelve tribes of Israel

Black Sheep

I'm not here to answer their questions .... they claim to have all the answers, so they are here to answer mine.

St George of England

how do you answer about the 144000 that come out of the twelve tribes of Israel

If you read the scripture in Revelation 7 you will see that the tribes listed are different to the 12 tribes of Israel listed in the OT!

George

transhuman68

Here's the footnotes from the RSV Bible: A symbolic number i.e. 12 (the sacred number) squared and multiplied by 1,000 to denote a multitude. It is the church, the spiritual Israel, that is meant.

And, hey- back in the day, when Christianity was just starting, 144,000 would probably mean everybody. But it was just a dream even then- 10 of the tribes were taken into exile in 720 b.c. and never heard of again. Check out "lost ten tribes"

Londo111

Whatever is the case: a symbolic number (12) times a symbolic number (12000) does not yield a literal number...it yields a symbolic number.

Bobcat

In 7:9, the great crowd is "out of" (Greek particle ek) "all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues." In 5:9, those who rule with Christ are "out of (ek) every tribe and tongue and people and nation." It is quite obvious that in Revelation 7:9 and 5:9 the group coming out is smaller than the group(s) from which they came "out of." Otherwise, there would be no reason to say they came "out of" whatever it was they came out of.

Rev 7:4-8 is no different. In fact, the idea is emphasized. The 144,000 sealed "out of" "every tribe of the sons of Israel." Then, "out of" each particular tribe 12,000 are sealed.

The conclusion is inevitable and obvious, unless one's eyes have been pasted shut by WT propaganda: The "sons of Israel" is made up of more than the 144,000 that are sealed "out of" it. And each tribe is larger than the 12,000 that are sealed "out of " them.

This agrees with what Paul said about the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16. It is made up of "all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct." Which, according to the context (6:12-16) refers to those who put their faith in Jesus as ransomer.

This also agrees with Jesus who told Peter that, "when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Here again, those 'sitting on thrones' form a smaller group than "the twelve tribes of Israel."

In all these verses, the Society can never take them at what they say. They always have to reason on why they don't mean exactly what they say.

Nambo

My view is that in fullfilment of Gods promise to Abraham, there will be 12000 literal souls from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Just because man doesnt know the genetic descendants of such, doesnt mean God doesnt know, they are not lost to him.

Then the great crowd is chosen from all the rest of mankind and is without number.

The Searcher

@ BOBCAT

Very accurate summary as to the Bible understanding.

The Watchtower Study article of 15th September 2011 made this interpolation:

"But consider the special reference to Israel’s 12 tribes that is found at Matthew 19:28 . Jesus said: “In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” In this verse, “the twelve tribes of Israel” are those who will be judged by Jesus’ anointed disciples and who are in line to receive eternal life in Paradise on earth."

So because this verse mucks up the spurious and odious teaching that excludes the majority from the the New Covenant and their Mediator - let's change the interpretation and call it "a SPECIAL reference!!!! (Much like changing the context of Romans 6:7)

Do the brothers who dream up these statements (like "new" scrolls) have any conception of what TRUTH is?

Have they no shame or Bible trained conscience? Waken up!!

Sorry GB & Writing Committee, this 'understanding' was just one step too far for one mature sister (husband is M.S.) who spoke to me after the meeting and said that this did not not make sense!

I confirmed her fears by explaining more or less what you said BobCat, that 'come out of' indicates that more will be left behind, on the earth!!

The angel correctly prophesied that the "true knowledge would become abundant", and I am convinced that we are seeing that taking place ever more rapidly now. (Dan. 12:4)

irondork

tag