WHO ARE THE "GLORIOUS ONES"?
* 'doxas' (Greek Strongs #1391) 'glories'/'glorious beings' (The New Greek English Interlinear New Testament), or 'angels'.
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"especially, however, those who go on after flesh with the desire to defile [it] and who look down on lordship. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble at *glorious ones but speak abusively, whereas angels, although they are greater in strength and power, do not bring against them an accusation in abusive terms, [not doing so] out of respect for Jehovah. But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will, in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even suffer destruction in their own [course of] destruction," - 2 Peter 2:10-12 (NWT)
"and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile *angelic majesties, whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed," - 2 Peter 2:10-12 (NASB)
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"In like manner, notwithstanding, these men, too, indulging in dreams, are defiling the flesh and disregarding lordship and speaking abusively of *glorious ones. But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses' body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: 'May Jehovah rebuke you.' Yet these [men] are speaking abusively of all the things they really do not know; but all the things that they do understand naturally like the unreasoning animals, in these things they go on corrupting themselves," - Jude 8-10 (NWT)
"Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile *angelic majesties. But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' But these men revile the things they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed," - Jude 8-10 (NASB)
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MY ANALYSIS
According to the context of both sections of scripture, a comparison is being made between the conduct of ungodly materialistic men and the conduct of angels. We have these men speaking badly about those things about which they do not really know (the heavenly realm), while living their lives by instinct like animals (the earthly realm). They do not respect 'lordship' (as represented by the angels). On the other hand the (good) angels are reported as not daring to revile either men or (bad) angels. When the scripture says that the angels do not bring an accusation against 'them, the 'them' is not "glorious ones", but ungodly materialistic men.
Thus, from my understanding, these scriptures do not support the belief in a class of people within the congregation who were considered to be 'glorious ones'. To believe such would be against what Jesus taught.
"They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called 'leaders,' for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted." - Matthew 23:6-12 (NWT)
Who are the "glorious ones"?
by JWB 7 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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JWB
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Bobcat
JWB:
The NAB commentary on 1st & 2nd Peter & Jude has this to say:
The arrogance of the false teachers is reflected in that they were "not afraid to slander celestial beings." Literally, "they do not tremble" (tremousin) in slandering "glories" (doxas). The NIV provides an interpretation here since the word "glories" could refer to human beings - either church leaders or civil authorities (cf. Ps 149:8; Isa 3:5; 23:8; Nah 3:10; 1QpHab 4:2; 4QpNah 2:9; 3:9; 4:4; 1QM 14:11). 69 It seems more likely that angels are designated as glorious beings (Exod 15:11, LXX; T. Jud. 25:2; T. Levi 18:5; 1QH 10:8). We might also think that the reference is to good angels since describing evil angels as "glories" seems inappropriate. Nevertheless, the context suggests that evil angels are indeed in view, as will be argued from the next verse. 70
Footnote 69 says:
For a reference to church leaders see Bigg, Peter and Jude, 279-80; Green, 2 Peter and Jude, 116-17; Smith, Petrine Controversies, 89-91; for political leaders see Reicke, James, Peter, and Jude, 167.
Footnote 70 says:
So also Kelly, Peter and Jude, 337; Bauckham, Jude, 2 Peter, 261-62; Moo, 2 Peter, Jude, 121; K. H. Schelke, Der Petrrusbrief - Der Judasbrief, HTKNT (Freiburg: Herder, 1980), 210.
The reason I posted this was, (1) To show the various ideas that have been put forth about "glorious ones." And, (2) There are several references that I do not have access to that others here might, that may be able to expand on the topic.
The Society definitely says they refer to "church leaders," their own only, since they have no qualms about denigrating any other religious leaders. And I believe they will use this as a reason to disfellowship.
Incidentally, the NAB commentary uses the NIV for the Bible text and I tried to preserve the exact formatting from the commentary quotes above.
Thanks for bringing the subject up.
Take Care
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blondie
When I read this article in 1998 I knew I was leaving the WTS...this confirmed my decision. Elders = glorious ones?!!!!! I remember the days when these men were called SERVANTS and were slaves to slaves. How high they fly now.
*** w57 1/1 p. 23 par. 9 “Feed My Little Sheep” ***
Still other experienced and trained men, district servants, oversee the circuit servants and congregation servants. Of these, 152 have been appointed to serve in different parts of the world. Today these appointed overseers—branch servants, zone servants, district servants, circuit servants, congregation servants—may not look upon their responsibilities lightly.
*** w98 6/1 pp. 16-17 “Put Up a Hard Fight for the Faith”! ***Respect Divinely Constituted Authority (find that phrase in the bible!) (Remember Paul corrected Peter's shunning the Gentile Christians in front of the whole congregation, imperfect or not, one of the 12 or not)
8 Another problem that Jude addresses is the lack of respect for divinely constituted authority. For instance, in verse 8 he charges the same wicked men with “speaking abusively of glorious ones.” Who were these “glorious ones”? They were imperfect men, but they had responsibilities conferred upon them by Jehovah’s holy spirit. For example, the congregations had elders, who were charged with shepherding the flock of God. (1 Peter 5:2) There were traveling overseers too, such as the apostle Paul. And the body of elders in Jerusalem acted as a governing body, making decisions affecting the Christian congregation as a whole. (Acts 15:6) Jude was deeply concerned that certain ones in the congregations were speaking abusively of, or blaspheming, such men.
9 To denounce such disrespectful talk, in verse 11, Jude cites three more examples as reminders: Cain, Balaam, and Korah. Cain ignored Jehovah’s loving counsel and willfully pursued his own course of murderous hatred. (Genesis 4:4-8) Balaam received repeated warnings that unquestionably came from a supernatural source—even his own she-ass spoke to him! But Balaam selfishly continued to plot against God’s people. (Numbers 22:28, 32-34; Deuteronomy 23:5) Korah had his own position of responsibility, but it was not enough. He fomented rebellion against the meekest man on the earth, Moses.—Numbers 12:3; 16:1-3, 32.
10 How vividly these examples teach us to listen to counsel and to respect those whom Jehovah uses in positions of responsibility! (Hebrews 13:17) It is all too easy to find fault with the appointed elders, for they are imperfect, as all of us are imperfect. But if we dwell on their faults and undermine respect for them, might we be “speaking abusively of glorious ones”? In verse 10, Jude mentions those who “are speaking abusively of all the things they really do not know.” Some will, at times, criticize a decision made by a body of elders or a judicial committee. Yet, they are not privy to all the details that the elders had to consider in order to reach a decision. So why speak abusively about things they really do not know? (Proverbs 18:13) Those who persist in such negative talk could cause divisions in the congregation and perhaps even be likened to dangerous “rocks hidden below water” at gatherings of fellow believers. (Jude 12, 16, 19) Never would we want to pose a spiritual danger to others. Rather, let each of us resolve to appreciate responsible men for their hard work and devotion to the flock of God.—1 Timothy 5:17.
11 Jude cites an example of one who respected duly constituted authority. He writes: “When Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: ‘May Jehovah rebuke you.’” (Jude 9) This fascinating account, unique to Jude in the inspired Scriptures, teaches two distinct lessons. On the one hand, it teaches us to leave judgment with Jehovah. Satan evidently wanted to misuse the body of the faithful man Moses in order to promote false worship. How wicked! Yet, Michael humbly refrained from bringing a judgment, for only Jehovah had that authority. How much more, then, should we refrain from judging faithful men who are trying to serve Jehovah.
(Galatians 2:8-14) 8 for He who gave Peter powers necessary for an apostleship to those who are circumcised gave powers also to me for those who are of the nations; 9 yes, when they came to know the undeserved kindness that was given me, James and Ce′phas and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars, gave me and Bar′na·bas the right hand of sharing together, that we should go to the nations, but they to those who are circumcised. 10 Only we should keep the poor in mind. This very thing I have also earnestly endeavored to do. 11 However, when Ce′phas came to Antioch, I resisted him face to face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before the arrival of certain men from James, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when they arrived, he went withdrawing and separating himself, in fear of those of the circumcised class. 13 The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Bar′na·bas was led along with them in their pretense. 14 But when I saw they were not walking straight according to the truth of the good news, I said to Ce′phas before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”
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BluesBrother
Lets not think that the WT position may have modified since 1998, 14 years ago..
The Daytext for Friday, June 15 2012
"He who is sowing with a view to the spirit will reap everlasting life from the spirit.—Gal. 6:8.
By means of his holy spirit, God furthers the love, joy, and unity of his people. (Ps. 133:1-3) Therefore, we should refrain from grieving the spirit because of engaging in harmful gossip or by saying things that would undermine respect for those who are spirit-appointed shepherds. (Acts 20:28;Jude 8) Instead, we ought to promote unity and respect for one another in the congregation. .............[extract]"
So the verse is still used to support the Elders.. Recently they are identified with the "stars" in Jesus right hand, in the Revelation. Humble servants indeed!
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Leolaia
Bauckham has a very long discussion of the phrase "slandering the glorious ones" (pp. 57-59). He agrees that the reference is to angels, indicated both by usage (in the Dead Sea Scrolls and in the Nag Hammadi gnostic texts) and context (catchword connections with v. 6, 7, 9). The main question is whether the author of Jude is referring to antinomianism (such as what is found in Paul), gnostic derogation of the created order (with the archons being nefarious beings), or something else. A full-blown gnostic understanding as delineated in Valentinianism or Sethianism would necessitate a much later date for the epistle, but it is not necessarily warranted that this is what the author is referring to. And it isn't simply the dismissal of the Torah but rather a libertine morality that the author is most interested in criticizing. It seems that the best understanding might be something in between these options that might accord well with a first century AD date: a proto-gnostic stream of antinomianism that not just rejected the Torah as something that enslaves which was promulgated by angels (which is what Paul taught), but also promoted full freedom from the moral principles in the Torah (which goes beyond what Paul teaches), while not yet conceiving of the more elaborated gnostic mythologies found in the second century. This might suggest that the author was Torah-observant like James the Just and Peter, unlike Paul, and although he does not have Paul specifically in view, he may not have been all that pleased with what Paul says about the Torah and the powers and authorities, but that is speculation. But it does fit well with the other indications that Jude was written by a Palestinian Jew in the first century (with an affinity to Essene literature).
BTW if you compare the two passages in Jude and 2 Peter it is very apparent in this instance that the author of 2 Peter used Jude and not vice versa. The very specific reference to the Assumption of Moses is removed and the thought is more muddled in 2 Peter.
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frankiespeakin
Of coarse the Governing Body's projection of the term "glorious ones" has to be slanted towards more control over rank and file JW. They prefer a dumbed down rank and file JW not able to question or critisize the men they appoint to elders in the congregation.
Leo,
The idea that jude being a jew and very familiar with essene writting and could actual include in its critisizim about speaking against glorious ones Paul i find interesting and very plausible.
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JWB
Bobcat, et al, thanks for your input. And what an interesting post from Leolaia. Blondie has pretty much shown the position of the WTS in its hammering home to the R&F that the 'glorious ones' are the elders; I've added a few references of my own below. Goodness knows how many times the case of what happened to the opposers of Moses has been brought up to scare the R&F into submission!
DOXAS
www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1391&t=NASB
2 PETER 2:10
www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Pe&c=2&v=10&t=NASB#conc/10
JUDE 1:8
www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jud&c=1&v=8&t=NASB#conc/8
ALL OCCURRENCES
I've found no references in connection with 'doxas' to elders or apostles being referred to as "glorious ones".
www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1391&t=NASB
The only glory applicable to Christians is to all:
"The glory [doxas] which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one just as We are one." - John 17:22 (NASB)
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WTS VIEW OF "GLORIOUS ONES"
"[2 Peter] 2:10-13. While 'glorious ones,' that is, Christian elders, have faults and may err at times, we must not speak abusively of them.--Heb. 13:7, 17." - Watch. 15 Nov 2008, page 22, paragraph 9 ("Highlights From the Letters of James and of Peter")
"Since even the most loyal and devoted Christians are imperfect, when an appointed servant makes a mistake, let us continue to do 'all things free from murmurings.' (Philippians 2:14) How sad it would be if we were to follow the poor example of a few in the first-century Christian congregation! According to the disciple Jude, false teachers of that day were 'disregarding lordship and speaking abusively of glorious ones.' Moreover, those wrongdoers were 'murmurers, complainers about their lot in life.' (Jude 8, 16) May we reject the path followed by murmuring complainers and fix our thoughts on the fine things that come to us through the 'faithful slave.' Let us appreciate the goodness of Jehovah’s organization and 'keep doing all things free from murmurings.' - Watch. 15 Jul 2006, pages 21-22, paragraph 12 ("Focus on the Goodness of Jehovah’s Organization")