Q & A on Jesus and God. The real TRUTH.

by apostate man 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

apostate man

I am not trinitarian and I know that JW's say they are not trinitarian, however, our beliefs ARE DIFFERENT when it comes to the Godhead and in particular, Jesus. I have gone round and round with JW's, they say I am trinitarian and nothing I say can convince them any different. Here are a few scriptures to prove Jesus is the same God as Jahovah, Father, Word, Son, Almighty, etc., etc. There is one God, Jesus.
I will add some of the KJV scriptures. NWT has changed the wording on all the scriptures, but the meaning only on some. I assume you all have NWT bibles, so I wont add any of those scriptures, not to mention I cannot find the NWT right now.
1. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No.
2. Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No.
3. Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes.
4. Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity.
KJ- Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one."
See my thread on this at http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=21882&site=3 explaining I John 5:7
6. Does the Bible use the word ONE in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see:
Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth:in that day shall there be ONE Lord, and his name one.;
Malachi 2:10...hath not one god created us?;
Matthew 23:9...for one is your father, wich is in heaven;
Mark 12:29 Jesus said...lord our God is one lord, 32 ..for there is one God and there is none other but he;
John 8:41 ; 10:30;
Romans 3:30;
I Corinthians 8:4;
Galatians 3:20;
I Timothy 2:5;
James 2:19.
7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without exuse.;
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
I Timothy 3:16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified by the spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into glory.
8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9.
9. Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3.
The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance."
10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No.
11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ.
II Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.;
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell.; 2:9 ;
Hebrews 1:3.
12. Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22.
13. Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10.
14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10 ; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent.
15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6 ...a child is born...his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseelar, The mighty God, The everlasting father, The Prince of Peace.; 63:16 .
16. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10.
17. How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9.
18. How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45 Jesus said...And he that seeth me seeth he that sent me.; 14:9 (Jesus saying)...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father....
19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8 Jesus said..."I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end", saith the Lord, "which is and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty".
20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.
21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18
22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2.
23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate.
24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10
25. Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19.
26. Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (it does not say the word was A god like NWT says it does), 1:14 And the Word was made flesh....
27. For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14.
28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16.
29. Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13.
30. Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5.
31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord..
32. Does the Bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. I kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1.
33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.
34. Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8.
35. Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10, (you guys should know this one great).
36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8.
37. What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2.
38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4.
39. How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9.
40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16.
41. Does the Bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8
42. Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16. You know this one well because NWT inserted the word OTHER in the scripture when it shouldn't have been.
43. Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7.
44. Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior.
45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes. I John 5:20 ...Jesus Christ.This is the true God and eternal life..
46. If God and the Holy Ghost are two separate persons, which was the Father of Christ? Matthew 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 11:31, and Ephesians 1:3 say that God was the Father. There is no contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit. Matthew 10:20; Ephesians 4:4; I Corinthians 3:16.
47. When Paul asked the Lord who He was, what was the answer? "I am Jesus." Acts 9:5 And he said, who art thou, LORD? And the LORD said I am Jesus whom thou persecutest....
48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus? Yes. Acts 7:59 ..Stephen...calling upon God, and saying Lord Jesus, recieve my spirit..
49. Did Thomas ever call Jesus God? Yes. John 20:28 and Thomas ansewred and said unto him(Jesus in case you didn't know, My Lord and my God.
50. How could Jesus be the Savior, when God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11, "Beside me there is no Savior?" Because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." II Corinthians 5:19.
51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us? Yes. Matthew 1:23.
52. Did Jesus ever say, "I and my Father are one?" Yes. John 10:30.
53. Can it be proved scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husband and wife are one? No. The Godhead was never compared to the relationship of a husband and wife. Jesus identified Himself with the Father in a way that husband and wife cannot be identified with each other. John 14:9-11.
54. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25.
55. Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13.
56. Can Trinitarians show that three divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John? Absolutely not. The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord.
57. Then what were the other two of whom Trinitarians speak? One was a voice from heaven; the other was the Spirit of God in the form of a dove. Matthew 3:16-17.
58. What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate.
59. Does the Bible say that God shed His blood and that God laid down His life for us? Yes. Acts 20:28; I John 3:16. God was able to do this because He had taken upon Himself a human body.
60. The Bible says that God is coming back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5) and also that Jesus is coming back with all his saints (I Thessalonians 3:13). Are two coming back? No. Only one is coming back--our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13.
Well I am tired and starting to make mistakes. If you have any questions, reply, or if you want any more scriptures, ask.
It's not so bad to finish second, because the other guy finished second to last. -A.M.
Joseph Joachim

And here we go again [8>]
I am not trinitarian
Of course not. Your disease is different, namely Modalist heresy.
That fundamentalist protestant nonsense is causing irreparable damage to your brain. Come back quickly to the Holy Catholic Church or soon it will be too late.
avengers

Is there such a thing as Real Truth. I always thought truth is truth. I guess I can learn a lot here. Smart.
apostate man

What are you people blind? or just stupid? Does the WORD not mean anything to you? Do you just accept what is told to you?
JJ, I wont even go into Catholic stuff(sin all you want than say a hail mary, mother may I).
Avenger, there is such a thing as real truth. There is also such a thing as someone saying they have the truth and its just a lie.
I know this thread only applies to people who care about what the word of god means and to people who claim they are Christians. Thats the point. I am not trying to convert anyone, not nearly. I just wanted to show the truth behind the scriptures. If you cant handle that, then God help ya.
It's not so bad to finish second, because the other guy finished second to last. -A.M.
peacefulpete

The debate rages on.And why? Because the Bible is a collection of writings some of which were reedited by later copyists and or writers.Some of the parts reflect a very orthodox Jewish approach others were under greater Greek or Gnostic influence.When a book becomes popular, redactors must be less obvious when adjusting the text.Yet the opportunity was not lost during the early decades of Christianity before any sort of Canon developed. So naturally some of the old will remain in place along side the new.There is no doubt Paul (if in fact his letters were not also reworked)associated godship wih Christ.The Gospels the final drafts of which were written under Pauline influence reflect a tradition in tansformation.It is not therefore wrong to say that the Bible Does and Doesn't teach the Divinity of Christ.So everyone is right!
SYN

Good one JJ!

"...the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing" - The Golden Age
[SYN], UADA - Unseen Apostate Directorate of Africa.
hooberus

I know that "modalists" and "Jesus Only" people disagree with people who believe in the Trinity doctrine. But does this give them the right to misrepresent what trinitarians believe? The watchtower has for years misrepresented the beliefs of trinitarians as being a "polytheistic" belief in "three Gods" or "three God's in one person."
Modalists also do the same.
1. The Trinity doctrine does NOT teach "polytheism" or the belief in more than one God. So verses such as Psalm 83:18 do not "disprove" the Trinity.
2. The Trinity doctrine does NOT teach that God was talking to another "God" when He said "let us make man in our image" in Genesis 1:26.
3. The Trinity doctrine does NOT teach that more than one God was active in creation. So verses such as Isaiah 44:24 do not "disprove" the Trinity.
4. The Trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus Christ is YHWH/Jehovah. So quoting a dozen verses proving that Jesus Christ is YHWH does not "disprove" the Trinity doctrine.
Modalists and "Jesus Only" people are guilty of using "straw man" agruments, rather than true comparisons of beliefs.
peacefulpete

No hooberus, it does not prove the Trinity to be wrong, but it does demonstrate that the doctrine was unfamiliar to early writers.
Everyone is aware of the debates and controversy about the nature of Christ that raged in the 2nd,3rd,and4th centuries CE.This is because abundant writings of Church fathers survived to be read.Is it not reasonable to believe that the debate actualy arose at the very birth of Chritianity?
Interestingly,
the Ebionites are little known to us today largely because their writings were burned as heretical at about the same time as the Gospels were being written.Late 1rst century,early 2nd.What we do know is that they were centered in Jerusalem,saw Jesus as a prophet,practiced Judaism at the temple,and kept largely to themselves.Perhaps some of the Jesus traditions in the Gospels can be traced to them.

A science called Textural Critcism seeks to analyse texts of notable works.They detect vocabulary changes,phrasology changes,discontinuity of thought,unusual word placement,anachronisms and so on and overlay this with what we know about the political and social environment of the time to summize the extent of reediting that the text has undergone.Numerous popular books have benefitted from their findings.
What they find when studying the text of the Bible requires numerous books to relate.As to the NT, it is accepted that the work reflects a changing theology,under gnostic and Greek influence.None of the Gospels were written in their final form by "Apostles".The Epistles also bear certain evidence of late authorship.Arguements to the contrary have only late traditions and gut feelings to use as proof.Passages such as John 1:1-18 are plain out of sync with the simple monotheism of the OT.The result has been confusion.
There then is evidence then that the debate about the nature of Christ was already begun during the writing of the NT.It continued with fury until Constantine threatened death to dissenters. This thread is evidence of renewed confusion naturally resulting from the Catholic loss of power in recent centuries.

Q & A on Jesus and God. The real TRUTH.

Share this