"New Light" on the "Great Crowd"?

by Quendi 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Quendi

  This is probably a stretch on my part but I’d like some input on it. In view of the “new light” on the Governing Body alone being the F&DS as well as the entire membership of JWs being the “domestics”, do you think there is even a remote possibility of the cult finally abandoning the idea of only 144,000 going to heaven and that the “great crowd” of Revelation 7 is also heaven-bound? (Ray Franz was a proponent of that idea.) After all, the scriptures do say they are ‘serving God day and night in his temple.’ Given that the WTS believes that Revelation was written at the end of the first century, the only temple referenced had to be in heaven since the Temple in Jerusalem had been destroyed. What do the rest of you think?

  Quendi
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  leavingwt

  JWs detest the idea of going to Heaven.

  Of this, I am certain.

  They want that pet lion, they need that pet lion.
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  solomon

  Sure I can see it. Come to the memorial and everyone partake of the "special wine" AKA kool aid
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  breakfast of champions

  I see the number of partakers disappearing, and perhaps even the 144000 changing to "a number smaller than the great crowd, but not a literal number".

  But they will keep the 2 class system.
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  wha happened?

  I think the 144k will be moved to a future fullfilment, but the GB is all of the annointed presently serving. Of this they can say they are part of the mysterious membership. The soon to be not so special partakers will be marginlized and this will discourage new ones from partaking. It doesn't mean anything anymore.

  Honestly I thought they would dump this years ago as their own literature speaks of tens of thousands killed in the 1st century. Sorta throws that 144k number off.
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  yadda yadda 2

  Yes I have been wondering about that too.

  I strongly doubt they will ever say the great crowd has a heavenly hope, despite the strong scriptural argument for this. The hope of surviving Armageddon into a paradise new earth is sacrosanct to JW's.

  What they may be leading up to is announcing that the "other sheep" (or prospective members of the great crowd) and the 144,000 are both in the new covenant and both groups can partake of the memorial emblems. In other words, that all the "domestics", whether of the professed anointed or "other sheep", are together in the new covenant as one flock under one shepherd but retaining their separate heavenly and earthly hopes, since there is a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness is to dwell.

  Commensurate with this will be new light that make a distinction between the "covenant for a kingdom" to sit on thrones, and the "new covenant" which is only about forgiveness of sins through Jesus blood. The former is a sub-set of the latter, and privileged for only a "little flock" of rulers in heaven. They will maintain their view that the covenant for a kingdom is uniquely for JW's anointed as future heirs of the heavenly kingdom, to sit on thrones with Christ.

  All they have to do is parallel this with the fact that all the ancient Israelites were in the old covenant, both those in the priestly class and the majority who werent, including persons of the nations who got circumcised and followed the law. Also supporting such a change is the fact that in Rev 7 the great crowd are standing in the naos dressed in white robes washed clean in the blood of the Lamb. They will not even suffer Adamic death, a privilege not even the 144k get to enjoy. All this must mean the great crowd is surely in the new covenant at least, but not necessarily the "covenant for a kingdom".

  This change is likely to be implemented because it solves the problem of the increasing memorial partakers while also vastly increasing the pool of potential new members of the governing body.
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  breakfast of champions

  ". . . the "other sheep" (or prospective members of the great crowd) and the 144,000 are both in the new covenant and both groups can partake of the memorial emblems"

  Then they just spike the wine with cyanide and the New System is here!
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  Bobcat

  This change is likely to be implemented because it solves the problem of the increasing memorial partakers

  Its too bad Bible study and research aren't the drivers of change in Biblical understanding.

  Instead, what other peolple do forces such changes in WT doctrine.
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  Cold Steel

  I can’t understand who would want to live forever on an Earth that’s a garden. In other words, think of GROUNDHOG DAY for trillions and trillions of years, world without end. Where the JWs get...confused...is that they believe that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. And since the resurrection is physical for (to them) most people, then there has to be two classes.

  What they fail to understand is that while flesh and “blood” (the corrupting agent) cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, flesh and bone can. Jesus did everything but rent a bill board informing the apostles that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see I have.” So the JWs believe he simply materialized a body because, after all, physical bodies cannot go through walls and ceilings. If physical bodies have spirit coursing through their veins instead of blood, and if they have bodies of glory surpassing that of the sun in brilliance, they certainly should be able to pass through objects that are solid to us.

  The scriptures say that the resurrection of the faithful will be after the resurrection of Christ’s, and that those so glorified will be co-heirs with Christ and that they will inherit “all that the Father has.” That’s certainly better than inheriting a bunch of plants and trees for a gazillion years. I want to pet the nice cats, too, but not for eternity! How long is eternity? It’s long enough to count every grain of sand, every rock, pebble and every piece of grit on the planet several trillion times (for a start). In other words, most JWs have no idea how long eternity is! The only way around it is to periodically have your memory rescinded to keep from going mad. Even heavenly beings can grow bored unless they progress and grow in knowledge, power, glory and works.

  One scholar, writing about theosis, reports: “The theme of deification in fact is explicit in the Syriac Testament of Adam . There Adam explains to his son Seth that God would eventually fulfill Adam’s desire for deification. Just before being cast out of the Garden, the Lord tells him, ‘Adam, Adam, do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god, not right now, but after the space of many years.’”

  The Eastern Orthodox defines theosis: Theosis is personal communion with God “face to face.” To the Western mind, this idea may seem incomprehensible, even sacrilegious, but it derives unquestionably from Christ’s teachings. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the messianic dream of the Jewish race; His mission to connect us with the Kingdom of God—a Kingdom not of this world. When Jesus said, “You are gods,” or “be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect,” or “the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father,” this is to be taken literally. For those who are interested, further Biblical evidence for this can be found in Leviticus 11:44-45; 20:7-8; Deuteronomy 18:13; Psalms 82:1,6; Romans 6:22; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:2-4.”

  Another Orthodox writer puts it this way:

  I said, “You are gods,

  And all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6)

  This is a verse that most Protestants do not underline in their Bibles. What on earth does it mean—“you are gods”? Doesn’t our faith teach that there is only one God, in three Persons? How can human beings be gods?

  In the Orthodox Church, this concept is neither new nor startling. It even has a name: theosis. Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature.

  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) also believe in theosis to the point that man can even join in the creation process. Both they and the Orthodox believe that man never ceases in progressing. Whether this view is correct or not, I do NOT believe that we can continue progressing if we’re returned to a garden setting to waste our years in endless family reunions, even if they do rerun STAR TREK.

  Church Fathers and Theosis

  St. Irenaeus of Lyons (d. A.D. 202) declared that "We have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods. … (Jesus Christ) became what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."

  Clement of Alexandria (d. A.D. 215) believed that in the "future life" we will be among "gods … those who have become perfect … and become pure in heart … They are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Savior."

  Tertullian, the first great Latin Christian author (d. A.D. 225), wrote that, through divine grace, the saved "shall be even gods."

  Origen of Alexandria (d. A.D. 251) believed in "the Father as the one true God," but acknowledged "other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God."

  And the translator of the enormously influential Latin Vulgate Bible, St. Jerome (d. A.D. 419), insisted that "God made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. … They who cease to be mere men, abandon the ways of vice, and are become perfect, are gods and sons of the Most High."