The IGNORANCE of God.......? The ignorance of those TELLING....

by Terry 3 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    I've been hearing all my life about the omniscience of God and most "believers" take it as a given.

    God knows the end from the beginning...would seem to imply such as fact.

    Isaiah 46:9

    I am God, and there is none like me,
    declaring the end from the beginning
    and from ancient times things not yet done.

    But, playing chess against Gary Kasparov would not require omniscience for any sane person to predict the end from the beginning, would it? Kasparov would win. Duh.

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    Case in point.

    Let's look at the little vignette of Eden and the "fall of man".

    What are we looking for? Statements of "knowledge" and statements of "ignorance." (on the part of God and about God).

    Let's take the account as portrayed in Genesis at "face value" before reading it.

    We are looking for what God knows and what God does not know.

    Let us set the scene.

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

    Let's skip the question about WHO actually was doing the walking (Adam and Eve OR God) and prepare our mind for the encounter between the "fallen" humans and Almighty omniscient (possibly) God.

    Genesis 3:9

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

    God either KNOWS or does not.

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    Genesis 3:11

    King James Version (KJV)

    11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

    God either KNOWS or does not.

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    1 John 3:19-20

    By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

    This would appear to be all-conclusive, right?

    Perhaps. Let's look at other instances of seeming ignorance on the part of God.

    Genesis 18:20

    New International Version (NIV)

    20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

    This would tend to suggest the bible writer is telling us the amount of attention God is paying is limited UNTIL more attention is given. At that point MORE knowledge will be available to God.

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    2 Chronicles 32:31
    God left him, to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart.
    Compare that with this:
    Psalm 44:21
    He knoweth the secrets of the heart.
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    The test of a statement about ALL of something would be one simple EXCEPTION.
    If we say: ALL swans are white....the test of truth.....would be ONE EXCEPTION. This is what logic in science calls "Falsifiability". It is how hyptheses are tested.
    Hosea 8:4
    They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not.
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    The source of HUMAN knowledge ABOUT god has to be considered.
    If I point to a person you don't know and I tell you what that other person is THINKING---am I a reliable source of information?
    I could list what the person has done. I could tell you what the other person has said. But--I cannot possibly tell you what another person is thinking. It is outside of possibility.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-
    CONSIDER THIS:
    Who is the source of THIS information and how did this source obtain it?
    Supreme Court Justice quote:
    Justice Elena Kagan said ... "I understand you have very good empirical evidence which should lead us all to wonder about the reliability of eyewitness testimony," she said. "I'm just suggesting that eyewitness testimony is not the only kind of testimony which people can do studies on and find that it's more unreliable than you think." http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/judicial/story/2011-11-02/supreme-court-eyewitness-testimony-reliability/51049540/1
    FACE IT: what we can and cannot KNOW is limited. What we can TEST we should test.
    Absolute statements are ripe for testing. It only takes just ONE exception to bring an absolute tumbling down!
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    CONSIDER:
    After the "Last Supper" Jesus and his apostles retired to the Garden at Gethsemane.
    They had eaten and had drunk wine and it was the end of a long day.
    The apostles all fell asleep while Jesus went off to pray.
    NOTE: JESUS prayed BY HIMSELF alone.
    When you read this ask yourself the following question: IF everybody (but Jesus) was asleep---who heard and saw the details of Jesus praying, crying, pleading, etc. AS TOLD in actual quotes in this scripture?
    LUKE 22:
    ” 39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” 40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.” 42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.” 43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. 45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!
    Is this an "eyewitness" account or something fictionalized later to make a point?
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    I had a friend once who chided me for not having a First Aid kit in my car. He gave a number of horrifying details of what could happen if I didn't have one in case of emergencies.
    I asked him if HE HAD ONE.......sheepishly, he replied: "Well, no--but, I should have one too."
    You see, my friend wasn't lying and he wasn't exaggerating. But, he was speaking from a general sense and not a detailed personal acquaintance reflected in his own life.
    It may have been sort of hypcritical, yes.
    But, well-intentioned and certainly not "evil".
    Should we not take ABSOLUTE STATEMENTS with a grain of salt?
    After all, an ABSOLUTE simply means "without exception." If there is ONE exception the so-called absolute is meaningless.
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    Men have spoken and written and have taught millions of "facts" about God over the millennia.
    A great abundance of absolutes have been inculcated.
    For out own mental health---would it not be prudent and rational and logical to QUESTION and TEST such statements?
    The Watchtower Society has from its beginnings relied on GUESSWORK and OPINION about its so-called "knowledege" and doctrines and theology.
    But, without any honesty whatsoever---this conjecture has been presented with ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY.
    One thing cannot be contradicted or explained away about this "knowledge"---it always proved to be dead wrong!
    That IS THE TEST for an absolute.
    History has again and again refuted Watchtower "knowledge" for what it always was (and is): guesswork presented as DIRECT instruction from God.
    If God does not know everything and our information about god is based on men who could NOT know the facts---how the hell can the Watchtower KNOW anything either?
    When it comes to God--the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses self-refute their own credibility.
    It isn't a demonstration of credibiltiy that the Watchtower "admits being wrong" because they were caught with their pants full---how could they deny the stink of it??

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Stirring the hornets

  • okage
    okage

    this is what i love about the jw spite for logic. i have been telling my wife these same things and plastering similar statements of yahoo answers for weeks. one jw told me that i didnt know anything out bible truth or the jws and that i was just parroting what i heard from apostates.

    i never met you. i am in a different age bracket than you. we dont have the same political views. you used to be a jw. i never was.

    yet we came to the same conclusions on different roads of research with dissimilar minds.

    you never read my yahoo answers. you didnt plagiarize me. you dont need to. truth is truth no matter where it comes from.

    two dissimilar people came to the same conclusion because logic and critical thinking allowed them to see the forest through the trees.

  • Terry
    Terry

    I would say there is a big big difference between knowing one thing is "untrue" and that another is "true".

    Reality trumps descriptions of reality (which are errors of reporting.)

    A lady applying for a job may tell you she is 39 but her driver's license says she was born 45 years ago. Which statement is wrong?

    Hard to say.

    She tells you she is 5'7" and her driver's license tells you she is 5'2". Now that is a bit easier because you can apply a standard measure against her when she stands up.

    We all look for a STANDARD but christianity tends to point to the bible as the measuring rod.

    But, when each "truth" stands side by side the variations are wildly at odds!

    Why? How?

    Because so many things we are told about God cannot really be tested in everyday life!

    A plane crashes and 189 people die. One person survives. "It was a miracle!" Now that certainly seems confirmation if you are the survivor--but--it refutes for the 189.

    You see, most religious "feeling" is simply PERSONAL EMOTION.

    Jehovah's Witnesses are very lucky! How? Because they claim Jehovah GUIDES them EXCLUSIVELY with specific information at "the proper time."

    Yet--by setting ACTUAL DATES that have been completely wrong---IT DISPROVES the premise clearly, conclusively and without question!

    That is very fortunate! But--disconfirmation doesn't work for the irrational mind or the superstitious true-believer.

    Reality is DETACHED from belief and utterly useless as a standard when you rely on faith.

    We so often take what we DON'T KNOW as a guide for measuring what we DO know.

    It should be the other way around!

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