Tower of B---l, Brooklyn confusion : 12 tribes.

by prologos 3 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  prologos

  Consistently the WTBtS has maintained that the 12 tribes mentioned by Jesus are the world of mankind outside the 144 000 ruling class. . wt aug.15/ 2009 page 8.

  They also quote James 1:1 :--"12 spritual tribes--", of ---"the ISRAEL OF GOD" Gal.6:16 and maintain that the spiritual Israel is made of 12 tribes,

  so do we have 24 wt tribes? may be one for each of the 24 elders?

  can we conveniently switch between the 24? to suit the occasion?

  Could the last bible-story writers not get their act together?
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  Bobcat

  Its not the Bible, but the WT that is . . . part of me wants to say confused, but I think it is something else. Something akin to a literary form of target fixation. They read the Bible and its all about them. So when they read about the 12 tribes in Matthew chapter 19, in a context that describes the 12 tribes outside of just the ruling class, then, that, to them, cannot be the same as the 12 tribes in Revelation chapter 7.

  Yet, Revelation 7 harmonizes quite well with Matthew 19 when you note that the 144,000 are taken "out of" those 12 tribes. But they refuse to see it, or acknowledge it.

  Their explanation that the 12 tribes of Matthew 19 refers to all of mankind (outside of the 144,000), is . . . true, as far as it goes. But WT intends for you to understand that it is not the same as the "Israel of God" or the 12 tribes of Rev 7.

  Jesus' explanation to the Sadducees that a person becomes a 'child of God' upon his resurrection blows away WT theology. (Luke 20:36) If a person becomes one of "God's children" simply because of being resurrected, how could anyone argue that the great crowd, which 'serves God day and night in his temple,' would have to wait till the end of the 1000 years to be adopted into God's family?

  During the millenium there are no Gentile governments. One can only be of the '12 tribes' that exist then.
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  sd-7

  My understanding was that they now teach that those figurative 12 tribes of Israel represent the 'great crowd'. I think maybe there was an article in the 3/15/10 WT (or something, I forget the exact date), 'One Flock, One Shepherd', that discussed that in detail.

  --sd-7
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  Larsinger58

  Okay, this is how it works.

  The 144,000 are natural Israelites with 12,000 from each tribe! The kingdom is like a tree where the unfaithfulness of the Israelites causes them to be lopped off and gentile ollive branches replace them. But, the gentile branches are told not to gloat because the "fatness" that feeds the entire tree comes from the Jews. Thus while many seats were lost in the kingdom due to unfaithfulness of the Israelites, a remnant of natural Jews would remain in the kingdom to fulfill the promise to Abraham. This ROOT and remnant of the tree chopped down is the 144,000. But note what Isa 6:13 says:

  Isa 6:13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.”

  Thus when the kingdom is likened to a massive tree, in the NT an olive tree, the trunk and branches are replaced by gentiles, but the root remains Jewish. The root represents one-tenth of the tree, though. So if the Jews from the 12 tribes of israel are the 144,000 then the entire number of those invited into the kingdom are ten times that number and thus 1,440,000!

  HOW DO YOU GET 12,000 FROM EACH TRIBE? The answer is that there is no way to get 12,000 from each of the original 12 tribes of Israel who long ago stopped existing as 12 tribes, even during the time of Jesus. Thus in order to make this prophecy come true, a miraculous intervention would have to occur. Just all 12 tribes began with a single individual, it was possible to reconstitute the 12 trobes of Israel from individuals from each tribe. All that was needed was time. Thus some or one from each of the 12 tribes who could prove their lineage who were alive during the time of Christ, would be chosen never to die until Christ arrived. Thus at some point a few hundred years prior to the 2nd coming, these individuals from the 12 tribes would marry into the modern population and by the time christ arrives, the 12 tribes of Israel would exist again and 12K from each tribe could be chosen to make up the 144,000!

  So there are 12 tribes of Israel now in existence, who are descendants of individuals from the 12 tribes who were alive in Jesus' day and who were permitted to remain alive until our time to re-establish the 12 tribes of Israel so that the fulfillment of a kingdom of priests from the 12 tribes could be fulfilled. So that's how you get 144,000 natural Jews from the 12 tribes -- it took a miracle, but that is what happened.

  Of course, when Christ first arrives for the first coming, he comes through the tribe of Judah. But the "scepter remains in Judah until Shiloh comes" (Genesis 49:10). But when Shiloh comes, the rulership shifts to the tribe of Joseph. Thus the Christ at the second coming, who arrives in the flesh via one of his followers, will be a descendant of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim!

  So since I'm the Christ, I'm a descendant of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim. I got a chance to meet my ancestor from the 1st Century who was of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim. I could tell by his appearance which side of the family is related to the tribe of Joseph. This fulfills the dream of Joseph where he sees his other 11 brothers bowing down to him, confirming the messiah at the 2nd coming would be from the tribe of Joseph.

  So, the 12 tribes of Israel do exist again, but via a miracle, to fulfill this technical part of the prophecy. These are the 144,000 with 12K from each tribe, but only make up the "root" or 1/10th of the entire kingdom, which totals 1,440,000 with 1,296,000 being gentiles. The gentiles make up the trunk and branches while the Jews make up the root.