The complete irrationality and unreasonableness of belief in 'miracles'.

by yadda yadda 2 5 Replies latest jw friends

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    The great British philosopher David Hume listed the following reasons for rejecting belief in miracles as described in ancient scripture:

    • People are very prone to accept the unusual and incredible, which excite agreeable passions of surprise and wonder.
    • Those with strong religious beliefs are often prepared to give evidence that they know is false, "with the best intentions in the world, for the sake of promoting so holy a cause".
    • People are often too credulous when faced with such witnesses, whose apparent honesty and eloquence (together with the psychological effects of the marvellous described earlier) may overcome normal scepticism.
    • Miracle stories tend to have their origins in "ignorant and barbarous nations"- either elsewhere in the world or in a civilised nation's past. The history of every culture displays a pattern of development from a wealth of supernatural events - "[p]rodigies, omens, oracles, judgements" - which steadily decreases over time, as the culture grows in knowledge and understanding of the world.

    Who can really argue with this, honestly?

    Christians, why are there no outstanding and undeniable miracles in the last 2,000 years of the type described in the Hebrew scriptures and gospels?

    How can God really expect any rational, intellectually honest and un-brainwashed person to believe in miracles or divine revelation?

  • Julia Orwell
    Julia Orwell

    " Christians, why are there no outstanding and undeniable miracles in the last 2,000 years of the type described in the Hebrew scriptures and gospels? "

    If you go to Europe, you'll find a ton of places where 'miracles' occurred during the Middle Ages and were 'documented' by the Catholic church.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    "If you go to Europe, you'll find a ton of places where 'miracles' occurred during the Middle Ages and were 'documented' by the Catholic church."

    Pah. List them please and show your sources.

    Show me the evidence!

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Miracles need to be defined as to what they are, and what they are not first. A miracle is not going to be a phenomena that happens of which we don’t YET have a scientific explanation of. If it was then gravity was a miracle but now it isn’t. The same would go for many things. It is true that the ancients did think that the sun rise and sets were not explained by science, due to the fact that science had not been discovered for most of human history. They did tend to think such things were governed by gods or were gods. In this way many such things in the ancient world were considered miracles. However the criteria of unusualness/uniqueness would be a big definitional marker for a miracle. In fact this is probably the main one for the ancient world devoid of convincing scientific understanding. This is, in part, why more miracles seem to happen in the past, or in primitive cultures than our own. Even given the unusualness definition, this is still going to be the case because of unusual events from nature that happen over long time scales, like volcanoes for instance. They are unusual events from the human perspective in a world without global news. So these were often thought off as miracles as a result, even more than the sun going up and down because it was considered unusual.

    The ancients seemed to have had a gradient scale for miracles in a way we don’t think of in modern times. Unexplained things from the gods, although considered miraculous, were not at the high end of this gradient if they were things that happened all the time, as with the sun and moon going up and down in the sky, hence the unusualness definition comes into play. Events in this second category of how rare the event was increased the notability and import of the miracle, so that the word miracle begins to resemble what we would think it should mean from a modern perspective. However they still didn’t have science as their baseline, but they did have a third category that increased an event right up to the top of their miraculous scale. This would be agency detection. So if an event that was, unexplained, unusual and caused by human or other perceived intelligent agency in terms of seeing it happen from that agency, then it really was at the top of tree in terms of the miraculous and seen as a full proper miracle.

    In a word where the bass line for nearly everything was kind of a miracle, baring the extreme mundane or taken for granted things of everyday life, like the effects of gravity which was not even thought about in objective terms, it might seem as though no room is left for a real miracles in the modern world where science explains so much. Even I as a Christian can see clear evidence in the scriptures of events deemed as from God having their explanation from science. I won’t go into that much, as I am sure the atheists will beat me to it and they would have a valid point in doing so. However there is much more to this subject than meets the eye. It would be easy to dismiss all miraculous claims as undiscovered science, or made up or exaggerated stores by the ignorant, willing or otherwise. This is why understanding science is so important when it comes to those who believe in miracles like I do. Unfortunately that means I would have to go into that subject as well. LOL

    For the moment however I shall just post this as it is, in order to point out that David Humes approach is a bit too simplistic a way of looking at it. I think there are miracles today in exactly the way they have always happened in the past, albeit I think the real miracles of the past have often been misunderstood, and I don’t mean unknown or known phenomena explainable in theory at least, by science, that is sometimes confused as a miracle. I mean stuff that cannot by definition be explained by science when one understands the limits of science. This is not God of the gaps because of the limits of science. Just a few thoughts.

  • kassad84
    kassad84

    The grounds for belief and disbelief are the same today as they were two thousand — or ten thousand — years ago. If St. Joseph had lacked faith to trust God or humility to perceive the holiness of his spouse, he could have disbelieved the miraculous origin of her Son as easily as any modern man; and any modern man who believes in God can accept the miracle as easily as St. Joseph did. - Miracles, C.S. Lewis

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Hume does define miracles, why don't you try reading his words for yourself? Its no use rationalising away what we naturally know 'miracles' to be and what philosophers generally agree upon as a definition.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle#David_Hume

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