JESUS was the Son of.....(?)MAN (which man?)

by Terry 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Jesus constantly called himself by the peculiar phrase Son of Man.

    Which man?

    Joseph contributed NO DNA to Jesus.

    It requires 23 chromosomes from a MALE and 23 chromosomes from a FEMALE to produce a human being.

    Jesus could not exist with only FEMALE chromosomes.

    **Aramaic bar nasha idiom was a way of talking about one's own self as a human being.

    It is an expression which is humble to the point of being unworthy.

    Job 25:4-6) 4 So how can

    mortal man be in the right before God, Or how can one born of a woman be clean? 5 Look! There is even the moon, and it is not bright; And the stars themselves have not proved clean in his eyes. 6 How much less so mortal man , who is a maggot, And a son of man , who is a worm!"

    Jesus constantly referenced his own self :

    Matthew 8:20

    Luke 9:58

    Therefore, which MAN provided the chromosomes for Jesus to be the Son of Man?

    There was a later rumor by Celsus (a Greek writer) that a centurion named Tiberius Panthera*

    had copulated with Mary resulting in the birth of Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera

    Others choose to interpret the phrase as a harkening back to certain ancient writings of an apocalyptic Son of Man.

    Opinions are always opinions, however.

    It is clear that Jesus may have used BOTH senses referentially.

    Be that as it may: WHICH MAN is Jesus the SON of?? GENETICALLY: which MAN was his father.

    I'd prefer to avoid going off on a tangent or side bar issues if possible.

    Your thoughts on the SON of (which?) MAN, please.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTesKjoZbRU

    *A possible connection between the two Panteras has been hypothesized by James Tabor, and hinges on the assumption that Celsus' information about Jesus' illegitimacy was correct, and a soldier with this name, living at the right period, might be the father. Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera's career would place him in Judea (present day Israel) as a young man around the time of Jesus' conception, and Tabor has hypothesized that as a connection

    Additional information

    Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the sky have nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head."

    Such idiomatic expressions are not at all messianic or eschatological in their sense

    or contexts.

    There was another use of the phrase SON OF MAN however. In the ancient apocalyptic literature such as that of the Essenes especially the Book of Parables of 1 Enoch and 4 Ezra) he is one who comes on Judgment Day to herald the resurrection and to bring reward to the saints and punishment to the wicked. This was a heavenly figure or otherwise (the Son of Man being a glorified Enoch invested with divine Wisdom, cf. Enoch in 2 Enoch as the angel Metatron and in 3 Enoch as the "lesser YHWH"). The phrase SON OF MAN stems from ch. 7 of Daniel and is meant to identify him with the figure who destroys the present reign of man and inaugurates the eternal kingdom.

  • Terry
    Terry

    To clarify a point taken as a "given" by christianity (the virgin birth) the following video explains

    how the use of the Septuagint conflated a mistranslated hebrew word and sparked a doctrine otherwise unfounded and unnecessary.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tScHJo7231E

  • humbled
    humbled

    The Talmudic scholar and professor, Daniel Boyarin, wrote The Jewish Gospels(2012). His thoughts on the Son of Man are mentioned in a book review by Alan M. Shore:

    "[The] Messianic role that Jesus fit was not, as many would have it, constructed after the fact by Christians who sought to portray him as such.Rather, it was an already-existing Jewish expectation that Jesus sought to fulfill. Working with in depth analysis such as Daniel 7, First Enoch and Fourth Ezra, Boyarin builds a case for a Messianic-divine"Son of Man" already embedded in Jewish thought and expectation."

    The book gets us off the exclusive merry-go-round of Christian-only perspectives.

    Maeve

  • mP
    mP

    I think i saw a scholar say that son of man merely means he is a mortal everyday man. Its just a differentway of expressing this idea.

  • Terry
    Terry

    For one word to "mean" what another word is saying is to make them equal or equivalent.

    One test of this as to accuracy is to simply substitute one for the other and stand back and witness the results.

    "even as the lightning by its flashing shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven so the son of man will be" Luke 17:22

    "even as the lightning by its flashing shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven so the ordinary man will be" DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

    What strikes me as passing strange is that the central figure in a major religion makes a fetish out of referencing himself by a peculiar

    phrase. Emphasis on the "ordinary man" and human status goes against the man-god dichotomy of later theology expositions.

    Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where one of Jerry's friends refers to himself in the 3rd person.

    The question remains to be answered: JESUS WAS THE SON OF WHICH MAN?

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    I have read that there was more than one Jesus and they 'overlapped' or something.

    At any rate I haven't seen any real evidence outside of the bible that Jesus as described by xtianity today existed.

    Even the Josephus account is inconclusive and possibly 'hacked' by xtians to make it look good.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Terry,

    I was shocked to hear this the first time but "son of man" has nothing with men. It is a messianic term in the Old Testament. If I recall correctly, it is one isolated scripture. I think it is found in noncanonical Jewish works. Son of God is no big deal. Son of Man is very important. Jesus always talks about a separate Son of Man. People have no idea whether he is referring to himself or a future figure or concept. It reveals or does not reveal a messianic concept.

    I wrote a large term paper on Son of Man. It was too confusing for me. Scholars love talking about the Son of Man.

    I lived in the same neighborhood as Dan Berrigan. He gave sermons and communion in my church. All the Woodstock Jesuits were saying things and doing things that shocked me. How do they do and stay within the church? I sometimes worshipped at their chapel. The assigned Bible reading once when Father Dan preached mentioned the Son of Man. He just said we were confronted by today's reading with the Son of Man issue. What can I add that hasn't already been said. I don't know what Son of Man means. Better people have tried and failed. So, it is a beautiful spring day. Have a nice day. End of sermon. People who knew him well were embracing him and telling him it was one of his very best sermons.

  • bjc2read
    bjc2read

    Jesus constantly called himself by the peculiar phrase Son of Man.

    Which man?

    Joseph contributed NO DNA to Jesus.

    It requires 23 chromosomes from a MALE and 23 chromosomes from a FEMALE to produce a human being.

    Jesus could not exist with only FEMALE chromosomes.

    Absolutely correct, Terry!

    Thus, I believe you are raising an intricate, complex and yet blatantly obvious question itself, that should be considered at one time or other, by all thinking christians or so-called christian believers. The key question should be whether the real "Son of Man" spoken of in the bible can actually be Jesus Christ at all, given the facts we have at hand. Because again, you have raised very excellent questions on this topic.

    In other words, given what we know about this situation, is it possible this expression ("Son of Man") can actually refer to someone else, maybe besides Jesus. I believe this is a real possibility.

    I will give you a very easy example. Most people read in the bible, the rule of the "Davidic Heir," the "messiah" is one who is said to be the coming ruler of Israel, would occupy (according those within the Jewish circles) an ETERNAL THRONE and would have an ETERNAL RULERSHIP, foretold in prophecy. (Psalms 89:36; Isaiah 9:7; Daniel 7:14)

    Then too, his "heirs" or "offspring" will likewise rule for ALL ETERNITY too, as foretold in prophecy. (Psalms 89:4; Psalms 89:29; Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:27; Revelation 22:5)

    And yet, the bible is very clear, Jesus' heavenly rule, is a temporary one, one that definitely comes to an end. No Christian would deny these thoughts. -- 1 Corinthians 15:24, 25

    So, we could rightfully ask, is this promised "Son of Man," someone else, besides Jesus Christ?

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    Great topic!

    bjc

  • *lost*
    *lost*

    sounds a bit New Age, will need a lot of looking into.

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