Reasoning with friends

by wizzstick 9 Replies latest jw friends

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  wizzstick

  Following my first two posts I'd like again to say thank-you for the welcome I've received. It's taken along time to feel that I could post. I'd tried before, but the guilt of associating with those that God disapproved of was too much. I guess I must be moving on.

  I've mentioned that I'm trying to explain my doubts/questions to my closest friends. All quite left wing types (have watched many an 18 or R-rated movie with me when we were single, much interested in topical affairs etc.).

  I used the wondeful JW Facts site simply to collect quotes from WT literature. Put each one on a Powerpoint slide and in chronological order. That seems to have had quite an impact. But I want to to try and explain how I've always doubted the elaborate way we build a spiritual collage from different bit of the Bible.

  I came across http://jwsrefined.com/2012/12/16/1914-a-marked-year-in-the-bible/ and liked how the writer lists all the below points from different WT publications into a (crazy) picture:

  • The Son of man’s rule in Daniel 2:44 and 7:14 began in 1914, but the son of man’s coming and enthronement in Matthew 24: 30 and 25:31 are in the future.

  • Jesus sat on a throne (as king) in 1914, but will sit on another throne (as judge) at the great tribulation.

  • Jesus arrived in 1919 to appoint a faithful and discreet slave but will arrive again in the future as king.

  • Jesus began ruling in 1914, but the millennial (1000 years) reign of Christ does not begin until after the great tribulation.

  • The separation of the wheat and the weeds began in 1919, but the separation of the sheep and the goats happens during the great tribulation.

  • Jesus became the ruler of kingdom of the world (Rev 6) in 1914, but Satan is still the ruler of the world (1 John 5:13).

  • Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth after his resurrection (Matt 28:19, 20), but received even more authority in 1914 and will get more again at Armageddon.

  • Jesus came as the messenger of Malachi 3:1 in 1919 to judge all of Christendom, but does not sit on a throne ‘of judgement’ (Matt 25:30-31) until the great tribulation.

  • Babylon the Great was judged and fell in 1919, but false religion is yet to be destroyed.

  • The Anglo-American world power received a ‘death-stroke’ in World War 2, but the stone carved with human hands from the mountain is yet to strike the feet made of iron and clay (Daniel 4).

  • The ‘gentile times’ ended in 1914, but human gentile governments and rulers still exercise complete power over all the earth’s affairs to this day.

  • The resurrection of most of the dead anointed occurred in 1919, but the marriage of the Lamb occurs at Armageddon.

  • The bridegroom returned in 1914, and the doors to the marriage feast were closed after throwing out the foolish virgins, but many more thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses have received an anointing since then.

  • The master of the household went away in 33AD, then he returned to appoint the FDS in 1919, and then he “arrives” at the great tribulation to appoint the faithful slave over “all his belongings”.

  • The Kingdom was established in 1914 but the “sheep” do not “inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the founding of the world” (Matt 25) until after Armageddon.

  I'm spending a lot of time reading non-JW stuff so wanted to check that the above was an accurate picture of current JW beliefs. If I pop those on a powerpoint, what could a JW argue back on? Are there any errors? Looks right to me, but I think there are some points that could be argued back (like the second point on thrones - isn't that the same throne but looked at in differengt ways?). Could any elders or ex-elders pull the above apart for me or suggest ways to improve it?

  Appreciate your help. I have a few close friends that I'd like to have on this journey with me.
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  Julia Orwell

  " I have a few close friends that I'd like to have on this journey with me."

  Me too, but for the most part they've just ripped me apart.
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  BroMac

  I think that list looks and sounds right to me. I like the power point idea.
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  AnnOMaly

  It's a good list! It really shows up the inconsistencies. I'm going to nitpick about some of the wording.

  • Jesus arrived in 1919 to appoint a faithful and discreet slave but will arrive again in the future as king.

  He was already king by 1919. He will arrive again in the future to execute judgment.

  Btw, did you check out the 3/1/2004 WT article "'The Faithful Slave' Passes the Test!"? P. 16 has a box: "When Does Jesus Come?" which lists about 4 occasions. I think it is still current light, even though most of the rest of the article isn't any more.

  • Babylon the Great was judged and fell in 1919, but false religion is yet to be destroyed.

  A get-out for that one might be that Babylon fell in 539 BCE but the city wasn't destroyed until a long time later.

  • The resurrection of most of the dead anointed occurred in 1919, but the marriage of the Lamb occurs at Armageddon.

  It's supposed to be 1918.

  You may like to work in this conundrum somewhere: The anointed are raised to become kings and priests with Christ for a thousand years. If most of them were already resurrected in 1918, are they ruling now? Before the Millennium? If so, they will have ruled longer than their fellow anointed still on earth. If not, what have they been resurrected for? What are they doing now?

  • The Kingdom was established in 1914 but the “sheep” do not “inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the founding of the world” (Matt 25) until after Armageddon.

  Related to that is, the 'other sheep' are not co-heirs with Christ. On what basis can they 'inherit' anything without being an heir?

  Word of caution: be careful how and to whom you discuss this with. Even close friends could become alarmed and rat you out or unintentionally be indiscreet.
• 

  punkofnice

  I hope it works it sounds great. what could a JW argue back on? They'd just turn their minds off. Ignore it or go down the line of 'they're just imperfect men....it's the nearest thing.....wait on Jehovah(TM)......' .....and I don't care how liberal they are, I've seen them turn in an instant once the WBT$ mind cleansing(TM) kicks in. "Minds must be cleansed" (Watchtower, June 1, 1953, p. 350 par. 24). 24 In these closing days of wickedness Jehovah’s people must demonstrate holiness. They must not foul their minds with the filthy mental food on the propaganda tables of this old world, but must feed on the feast of fat things Jehovah provides. (Isa. 25:6; 28:8.) Minds must be cleansed and made over, mental circuits formed by old-world thinking and acting faded out and new ones put in according to new-world specifications. By privately studying regularly, by attending all meetings regularly, and by engaging in all features of the preaching work regularly mental circuits are deepened and such good activities become habitual, not at all the struggle they are when the mental circuits are weak and faint because used only occasionally. For ourselves and for others, make them strong!—1 Tim. 4:16
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  jgnat

  There's a cult personality that takes over when threatened. The trick is to keep the cultist persona calm while engaging the natural person. There is no use arguing with a cultist. They will simply regurgitate old arguments or run away. You want to engage and encourage the natural personality. Here are ways to do that.

  • Ask open-ended questions.
  • Engage them when they have been away from the meetings the longest, such as the day before the midweek meeting or after they come back from a break.
  • Use third party examples, such as the Mormons, Scientologists, or Amish.
  • Encourage empathy, "Put yourself in my shoes..."
  • Coax out what their big issue is and discuss that.
  • Honor their choices, even if they disagree with you. You might challenge with more questions, but always honor their right to choose a different path.
  • Always honor individualism and personality.
  • Use humour.
  • Remind him of character traits that make him unique, as in "Oh, Charlie. Remember how you always..."
• 

  wizzstick

  Thanks all for your helpful comments. Punkofnice and jgnat I'm aware I need to read carefully. There are literally just a handful of friends who I will, at some point, take them through this. Carefully, when I know they'll be most receptive. It's sad to have to think in cunning terms with friends but sadly that's how it feels.

  Thanks AnnOMaly for your review and your comments. I'll look up the '04 WT, and update my notes. Really appreciate those suggestions.

  I really feel for you Julia, reading your postings sounds like you're in a world of pain. Will reply on your latest thread.
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  Sgt. Pepper

  Thank you Jgnat for the many tips. From my last lunch with my JW friend, I've learned it's helpful to wait for information to process. Don't rush, armageddon's probably not happening tomorrow ;)
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  Captain Blithering

  Thanks wizzstick for starting this thread, and thanks punk and jgnat for your advices, i respect what you guys say, and I plan to out it into practice someday...
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  Crazyguy

  I wonder how many of these on his list are still current light/doctrine???