God's problem: Randomness

by rawe 6 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  rawe

  Hi Everyone,

  I would like some input on this idea. I have seen folks speak about God's problem in regards to suffering. That subject does raise some serious obstacles between the views of God most people have and the real world. Especially when you consider many who believe in God, also believe he created life, which includes brutal predator-prey relationships and parasites, etc.

  However, on this topic, I would like to propose this statement as true:

  If one believes in all powerful interactive miracle working God, then one must concede nothing in the world can be known. That scientific knowledge depends upon either God not existing or not interacting with our world in random ways.

  Is this true? What is the logical fallacy in this view?

  Cheers,

  -Randy
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  Monsieur

  rawe

  it appears that you are making the common mistake of attempting to 'inject' God into the scientific and natural formula.

  in nature, chaos can reign supreme, especially when we have absolutely ZERO control over events (such as tsunamis, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, etc...) when these events ocur, we see planet Earth going through a cause and effect due to temperatures, gravity etc.

  anything living that gets caught in these 'disasters' is obviously unfortunate.

  in nature, living things are born and die, some can live a long time, others not. some will die of disease, others will get eaten, and others will be plainly murdered (pest control) or (gang violence).

  man attempts to explain these things with a concept known as God. God attempts to fullfill this ancient and well known phrase,

  ordo ab chao - out of chaos, order

  but for this to happen, you need an incredible amount of faith.
• 

  rawe

  Monsieur,

  "in nature, chaos can reign supreme"

  Maybe we're talking about two different things, but I think my view is the exact opposite of that. Other than the essential randomness at the quatum level, in the larger macro world, nature follows laws that cannot be violated.

  Cheers,

  -Randy
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  humbled

  So how do we know that this randomness is random--just because we don't have a theology that encompasses what is going on around us? I guess we are still the center of the universe, huh?

  I try to live now without the theology of the past because I cannot trust it.

  I see all the random pain and suffering. I live with it. It seems more to the point than ever before that the only thing that lets us transcend chaos is the will to extend kindness, love, in suffering.

  Jesus taught this. He said this is the new command and the singular mark of one who hears and follows Jesus, it is the only thing that can stand in front of the chaos--not the worthless dogma of religious teaching.

  Who does know God?

  If th am wondering, if the nature of the universe is this orderly chaos--and we exist in it--well, I've got to deal with it without infusing any intentional, needless suffering into it. Love the creation and love one another.
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  Monsieur

  rawe,

  Maybe we're talking about two different things, but I think my view is the exact opposite of that. Other than the essential randomness at the quatum level, in the larger macro world, nature follows laws that cannot be violated.

  if this is the case, then nothing is trully random.

  and if this is the case, then 'reality' is trully perception. What you constitute as randomness or chaos, i can refer to order and design.

  which means there is no right, and there is no wrong. (one man's garbage is another man's treasure- one man's terrorist is another man's liberator).

  injecting God into this mix allows us to decide, take sides to speak.
• 

  rawe

  Hi Monsieur,

  if this is the case, then nothing is trully random.

  Exactly, at a certain macro level yes, and it is the only reason why we can make sense of the world. For example, the law of gravity is no where in the discernable universe violated. The path Earth follows through space around the Sun is according to the laws of nature, particularily the law of gravity.

  and if this is the case, then 'reality' is trully perception

  I not following your logic here. Why would a non-random law-of-nature reality make reality just perception?

  What you constitute as randomness or chaos, i can refer to order and design.

  As far as I'm aware true random non-predictable events happen basically at the sub-atomic level in the world of quatum mechanics. As we scale up from there to the macro world concrete predictions can be made and shown to be reliable. One must of course remember that as the number of variables start to increase tracking all of them because an impossible task. This can result in what appears to be random, such as weather systems, but they truly are not. I would also concede quantum mechanical randomness might subtly impact larger systems.

  injecting God into this mix allows us to decide, take sides to speak.

  Injecting God, introduces a law-of-nature violator of unlimited scope and power into our world. If we are trying to understand reality and we're forced to accomodate the God-variable then gaining real knowledge about our world is impossible, is my supposition. This idea builds on a very old Twilight Zone episode I saw where aliens visited humans to tell them they were ending the experiment. After a great deal of begging the alien race allowed humans one more week to present their case for continued existence. At the end of the week, the leader of the UN presented a world-wide iron-clad peace treaty that truly ended all wars. After reading a few pages, then pausing, then smirking, then outloud laughing the alien said...

  "You silly humans! We breed warriors! Your puny weapon developments are no good -- and on top of that you long for peace."

  Cheers,

  -Randy
• 

  rawe

  Hi Humbled,

  So how do we know that this randomness is random--just because we don't have a theology that encompasses what is going on around us? I guess we are still the center of the universe, huh?

  We do seem to want to put limits on God, such as "he cannot lie" or a "God of justice" or "Perfect is his activity". Perhaps doing this can make God seem more coherent. But as soon as he has violated some law of nature when it suits him, it creates the problem of knowledge I am referring to. We believe the sky is blue due to what we know about how light waves scatter in our atmosphere. However, if for some unfathomable reason the sky is really bright green, but God has decided we need to see it as blue it would happen and we would be none the wiser. So it might create the paradox you allude to -- that is what seems random to us, merely reflects the limits of our theology.

  Ultimately I think we're still left in a pickle with God interacting with our world. We must concede not only lack of knowledge (i.e. about God's purpose for making a bright green sky appear blue), but more deeply that knowledge about our world is fundementally unattainable.

  I try to live now without the theology of the past because I cannot trust it.

  However, the laws of nature, to the extent we understand them correctly, are completely trustworhy. We walk around completely confident in the laws of motion and gravity will work from day to day the same.

  I see all the random pain and suffering. I live with it. It seems more to the point than ever before that the only thing that lets us transcend chaos is the will to extend kindness, love, in suffering. Jesus taught this.

  Amen to that!

  He said this is the new command and the singular mark of one who hears and follows Jesus, it is the only thing that can stand in front of the chaos--not the worthless dogma of religious teaching. Who does know God? If th am wondering, if the nature of the universe is this orderly chaos--and we exist in it--well, I've got to deal with it without infusing any intentional, needless suffering into it. Love the creation and love one another.

  And this too!

  Cheers,

  -Randy