Found photocopied pages of a book on Jesus, given to me by a householder years ago

by cedars 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • cedars
    cedars

    Hi folks

    I was going through some old things recently and came across photocopied pages I had forgotten existed. They are scans of selected pages from the book Who Was Jesus?, by Don Cupitt, published in the 70s. I've checked on Amazon and it now seems to be out of print.

    The pages in question discuss certain inconsistencies in the Gospel records, and attempt to explain to the layperson the process by which higher critics work to establish which biblical accounts were likely accurate and which were probably embellished.

    I was given the scans years ago when I was calling on a scholarly man, a writer of university publications. He was an evolution enthusiast, but expressed intrigue concerning religious belief. I think he viewed me as an interesting guinea pig who could offer the other side of the argument. Needless to say our conversations rarely went anywhere, but he did say a few things that always stayed with me and kept the embers of my doubts alive. I'm sure I learnt more from him than he learnt from me, though he probably doesn't realize this.

    On one occasion he grilled me on the "nativity" account, especially the part where Mary conceives as a virgin. Perhaps it would be best to actually type out what it says in the pages he gave me from Who Was Jesus, so here goes (this is from page 46, my comments in bold italics]...

    So it looks like we may have to do without Bethlehem, the star and the three Kings. But the issue of the Virgin Birth raises much more important questions - especially for Roman Catholics. Here again our first principle should make us wary - suspect an Old Testament parallel. [He's referring to the fact that critics are automatically suspicious of accounts in Jesus' life that mirror exactly what is contained in the Hebrew Scriptures.] What Matthew wrote was: 'All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".' [Matt 1:23 in NWT: “Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Im·man′u·el,”] Matthew took this quotation of the prophet Isaiah from his Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint:

    Behold a parthenos shall conceive...

    Here the word parthenos certainly means a virgin. But if Matthew had gone back to the original Hebrew in which Isaiah wrote, he would have found that this word was almah, which means simply 'a young woman.' Hebrew has a word for virgin, bethulah, but Isaiah chose not to use it. He was predicting a perfectly natural birth. There is no idea of virgin birth in Isaiah's original prophecy. [Isaiah 7:14 in NWT: "Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son,"] Matthew can only use it as a proof text because of this mistranslation from Hebrew into Greek. It remains just possible that Matthew inherited an independent tradition of the Virgin Birth, which he thought he could support with Isaiah's prophecy. But historically it seems more likely that the whole idea arose simply from this mistranslation.

    I remember being dumbfounded by this when it was shown to me, but like many other things I was able to dismiss it all with lashings of cognitive dissonance.

    Now I have unearthed this material with a more open mind, it does seem plausible that the whole idea of Mary being impregnated directly by Holy Spirit arose through a simple mistranslation, hence raising serious questions about just how inspired everything in the Gospels truly is.

    By the way, I don't want to dent anyone's bible faith with this information. I just think it's good to share and debate this kind of material, which was hidden from us within the organization.

    Cedars

  • Nathan Natas
  • cedars
    cedars

    Thanks Nathan, good find.

    Cedars

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    Cedars, Matthew loved prophecies, and making parallels to Jesus. My favorite was pointed out in a book by Bart Erhman. Matthew is using a prophecy that says Jesus would ride into town on a donkey, yes the colt of a she ass or similar wording. Matthew doesn't recognize the poetic wording in the OT and mistranslated and falsifies the account, to say Jesus rode into town straddling both a colt and an ass. Imagine Jesus stretched legs across a tall donkey and little colt riding both together just to fulfill a prophesy. Matthew was very keen to PROVE Jesus fulfilled prophecies. Your posted idea fits this very well.

  • gingerbread
    gingerbread

    Birth of a savior or prophet by miraculous conception is a theme that appears in almost all cultures. The story of Isaac being born to Sarah through holy spirit is the Hebrew precursor to the Immaculate Conception.

    Other traditions predate the birth of Christ. Buddha was conceived by his mother during a dream - about 500 years before the birth of Christ. Both Babylonian and Assyrian histories contain miraculous birth through the intervention of a diety - 2000 years before Christ.

    Google these folks: Houji, Momotaro, Zoroaster, Vishnu & Coatlique.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Paul seems totally unaware that Jesus had a miraculous (i.e. VIRGIN birth).

    You'd think he would have mentioned that wouldn't you?

    _____________________________

    Paul wrote 45 years BEFORE other so-called Gospel writers.

    Between 49 and 55 CE, he recorded the first known written reference to Jesus' birth. In Galatians 4:4, he writes:

    "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law."

    About 57 CE, he wrote his only other reference to Jesus' birth. In Romans 1:1-3 he writes:

    "I Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle and separated onto the gospel of God...concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh."

    WHO could have influenenced this idea of a Virgin birth in the 1st Century?

    The virgin birth may have been copied from a Roman fable: Livy, a Roman historian, had scribed a popular book on the history of Rome that was widely circulated in the first decades of the 1st century CE. In it, he explained that Mars, the Roman God of war, fathered twins Romulus and Remus, the original mythical founders of the city of Rome.

    Their mother was Silvia, a Vestal Virgin!

    __________________________________________

    Further details:http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b1.htm#

  • cofty
    cofty

    Mark is the oldest of the synoptic gospels and he also appears to be oblivious to anything supernatural about Jesus' birth.

  • Lied2NoMore
    Lied2NoMore

    I started reading books the wtbts has made reference to to support their ideologies one is "the rise of christianity" by ew barnes. The book goes to great lengths to debunk authenticity of bible writings, authorship, and gospel writings. After I read it it seemed to me that someone for years has been trying to lift the WT veil off covertly by getting some to read something other than WT material for a fresh perspective.

    I found it very enlightening

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7
    The Meaning of Almah

    Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14

    If a young unmarried woman was intended by "almah", then we are talking about sex before marriage. If young married or unmarried woman was the meaning of "almah"...what kind of a miraculous sign would that be to anyone?

    Check out the full study at

    http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/VirginBirth/Isaiah.html

    The word translated "virgin" in the KJV is almah. This term in either its feminine form (almah) or masculine form (elem) occurs nine times in the Old Testament (Gen. 24:43; Ex. 2:8; 1 Sam. 17:56; 20:22; Psa. 68:25; Prov. 30:19; S. of Sol. 1:3; 6:8; Isa. 7:14). So far as we can judge from the contexts, the term never refers to a married person or even to an adult. In some instances, the term obviously refers to someone young and unmarried. For example, Moses' sister Miriam was an almah when she hid him in the bulrushes (Ex. 2:8).

    According to Alfred Edersheim, the great Jewish scholar converted to Christianity over a century ago, the Jews recognize eight stages of growth (3). He says that the word almah pertains to the sixth stage, which is between dependent childhood and independent youth (4). By its connotation of firmness and strength, the word suggests the rapid bodily growth of early adolescence (5). Thus, an almah was a girl about twelve to fourteen years old. The closest English equivalents to almah are "maiden" and "damsel" (6). "Young woman," although passable as a translation, stretches the concept too far into adulthood.

    The rabbis taught that a father should betroth his daughter to his slave rather than keep her unbetrothed beyond puberty (7). A girl was normally married before she passed much beyond fourteen (8). Thus, since almah specifically denotes a girl at the stage of growth just before marriage, the term apparently came to signify "unmarried girl of marriageable age" (9). And since nearly all unmarried girls in ancient Hebrew culture were chaste, the term seems to have acquired the further meaning "virgin" (10). In some of the texts exhibiting almah, "virgin" is clearly the most appropriate translation.

    43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin [almah] cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink.

    44 And she say to me, Both drink thou, and I will also draw for thy camels: let the same be the woman whom the Lord hath appointed out for my master's son.

    Genesis 24:43-44

    The speaker is Abraham's servant, who has been sent to a far country to find a wife for Abraham's son Isaac. The servant would certainly have found it natural to call Isaac's prospective wife a virgin.

    Another instructive text is the following:

    There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins [plural of almah] without number.

    Song of Solomon 6:8

    The list comprehends all the women within the king's household. Although many queens and concubines were young women, the term almah is reserved for girls unmarried to the king—in other words, for virgins (11).

    The Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament dating perhaps from the early second century B.C., renders almah in Isaiah 7:14 as parthenos, a word that indisputably carries the specific meaning "virgin" (12). The Jewish scholars who produced the Septuagint were certainly familiar enough with Hebrew to know what almah meant. Also, when the Gospel of Matthew quotes Isaiah 7:14, it substitutes parthenos for almah (Matt. 1:23) (13).

  • itsibitsybrainbutbigenoughtosmellarat
    itsibitsybrainbutbigenoughtosmellarat

    It is available on Amazon in used condition. I got one for about $6 incl shipping.

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