Believe Vs judgement

by Skbj 5 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Skbj

  I was watching a youtube video of exJW in Italy who explained what woke his mind up. It's an old recording and this guy became an evangelist, however for those who don't speak Italian I want to briefly explain what started the awakening process for him as I found it interesting.

  This guy found an old lady in the ministry and started a bible study but she couldn't see the scriptures as the writing were too small and at the time there weren't WT publications in big characters so the brother went to the city centre to a place where they sold bibles and bought the one with the biggest characters. The sales man said to him: I know you're a JW and i know you read the bible, and you don't only read the bible but you study the bible and not only you studying it but you go preach the bible to other people. So can I ask you a question: Do you think you'll be judged by god?

  The brother reaction at that very moment was that, that was the silliest and stupidest question he ever heard, he was used to have discussions with other religious people on main doctrines like the trinity, the soul etc but no one ever asked him that so as a trained JW he immediately was searching through his mind trying to guess where the man was aiming to. However he aswered: Of course I will be judged. God one day will judge all men, therefore he'll judged me too. So, the man asked a second question and said: So you, although you have your religion and you do all these things for your religion, you don't have the assurance of being saved. And the brother even more baffled answered: Of course not, I am not sure I'll be saved. How can a man be sure he'll be saved. Nobody can be sure. If I follow the bible, if I go preaching, if I am a good person, if I do all that the god asks of me, probably god in whole his mercy will save me. But saying that I am sure, no I can't say that.

  So the other man said: I'd like to read you a passage from the bible and went on to read him John 3:16-18

  16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [taken from the new american standard bible]

  Providing that believing in christ isn't just a "ok I believe this wise man existed" I'm talking real belief, it says f someone believes in christ he/she isn't judged and shall not die, but who doesn't believe is judged already, so now I'm asking myself these questions:

  • What's the point of JW going preaching then? I could understand trying convert non-christians but what's the point going preaching to other christians? They already believe in Christ therefore they have already salvation.
  • What's the point of being tested after the 1000 years? If people believe in christ they shall have eternal life, another judgement?
  • Does this mean that non-believers dying before armagheddon won't get resurrected at all? But then if those non-believers were just JW non-believers but christians regardless, then they will already have eternal life, so why do they need a bible study when resurrected?
  • Why are JW feeling like they have to do all of those things that define their JW lifestyle to be saved when the bible clearly tell them they have eternal life if they believe in christ? Ok...this I probably know the answer to, something to do with cult mind control...:D
  • Why do the scriptures love to confuse people? I mean this one is a key passage in the old bible, probably one of the first I got to learn as a child. And it clearly says all you have to do is believe in christ. Why is that, afterward, there are other clauses for a christian like matthew 24:14 and a bunch of other things that the old and new testaments say one has to do have eternal life or be in the grace of god?

  I'm sure in the past how many years that this forum existed this subject has come up a number of times, but I would be interested in hearing your opinions.
• 

  Apognophos

  "Faith without works is dead." It's how the WT defines "works" that's part of the problem ("No soup kitchen for you!").

  Providing that believing in christ isn't just a "ok I believe this wise man existed" I'm talking real belief

  There's the trap. The Society teaches that people are generally not doing anything more than believing Jesus existed, and in any case they are not worshiping him the right way (because of the cross vs. stake deal, etc.).
• 

  NeverKnew

  Hi, SKBJ,

  I can't answer your first 5 bullets since I've never been a JW. Actually, sometimes when I read this forum it suggests that I wouldn't be able to answer even if I was a JW. *sigh*

  To your 6th point, my personal answer is?.... Context! If you don't consider the audience, you'll be lost for sure. :)

  I'm no expert, but here's what I keep in mind. Paul was a Jew but he was an apostle to the Gentiles - not the Jews. As we all know, recently converted Jews would have been entrenched in the practice known throughout the scriptures as "the Law." You know the old adage, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do?" Take a peek at 1 Cor. 9:19-22. :) Paul's goal was to win converts by relating using the customs and understanding of those he was around. In order to interpret the speaker's frame, you have to consider the speaker's apostleship as well as the audience (Jew to Jew?... Jew to Gentile?).

  Just something to consider.
• 

  transhuman68

  I guess the question is, why does something that should be simple become so complicated? Maybe because it never was simple. Just as religions today make up stuff as they go along, so the writers of the Bible were just... making up stuff as they went along- except that we look back now and think they knew what they were doing- and we call it the 'Word of God'. Christianity was as divided in the 1st century as it is today, but all the various creeds & doctrines of the divers groups were collected and put into one book by the Catholic Church centuries later. So if it doesn't make sense, it's because it never did, and never will.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Salvation (justification) is by faith alone. Faith which does not work (love, serve, worship) in response to God's grace gift of salvation is dead or false faith. False faith does not save anyone. Works prove faith is genuine; not to God...but to man. God knows the heart; He doesn't need works to prove faith. Faith puts full weight for forgiveness and eternal life on who Christ is and what He has done at Calvary on behalf of sinners like you and me. Works follow faith or there never was saving faith in the first place.

  Faith rests on the atonement of Christ; on the merit of Christ, on the blood of Christ, on the grace of Christ; on the gift of Christ; on the resurrection of Christ. Faith rests. Faith is divine; it is the Holy Spirit expressing the nature of God; his witness in the heart of the believer from which works/fruit of the Spirit flow.

  The hand of man does not mark/influence faith one iota. Faith rests; it rests its case in total dependance of God and His work.

  "My Hope is Built on Nothing Less"
  by Edward Mote, 1797-1874

  1. My hope is built on nothing less
  Than Jesus' blood and righteousness;
  I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
  But wholly lean on Jesus' name.

  On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
  All other ground is sinking sand.

  2. When darkness veils His lovely face,
  I rest on His unchanging grace;
  In every high and stormy gale
  My anchor holds within the veil.

  On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
  All other ground is sinking sand.

  3. His oath, His covenant, and blood
  Support me in the whelming flood;
  When all around my soul gives way,
  He then is all my Hope and Stay.

  On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
  All other ground is sinking sand.

  4. When He shall come with trumpet sound,
  Oh, may I then in Him be found,
  Clothed in His righteousness alone,
  Faultless to stand before the throne!

  On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
  All other ground is sinking sand.

  False faith rests salvation on our puny works..which produces no fruit, no assurance, no joy.

  For God....

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtcCxRtHhpE&list=PLnm35sHkW6OMZKcTpsG9Q0F-hJm72GHwv
• 

  Skbj

  @Apognophos

  true, I remember that scripture about faith being dead without works, but then is also goes to align with the other question that I have that the bible is never straightforward. So why can't it be simple and straighforward which brings me to my next comment.

  @NeverKnew

  I hear you. In fact the context drives me mad, why foes it need to be one at all?...according to the bible, god first gave the 10 comandments, and those were the things people had to do to be his people. Theeeeeeen the little rules and regulations came, first was a trickle then became a full flow of them. Then Jesus came and said all of that is out of the window you have to do what I say as my followers. Again he started with simple things, like love one an other, believe/have faith in me. Theeeeen boom boom boom all sorts of rules from those who came after Jesus like Paul, John etc...do or don't do this. I don't know, to me is seriously mental to be like that.

  @transhuman68

  I'm with you. Doesn't make sense to me it never did. And isn't because I don't have faith, in general I have faith, just I don't have the biblical type faith for things that don't make sense. Let's imagine this: I live on the 18th floor of a building. If someone came to me and said he has faith that he can step on the edge of the terrace and walk across to the next building walking on air. I would think he's crazy and call an ambulance. The only faith I would have is that the man would fall 18 storeys below and die or at very least hurt himself real bad. So why instead we believe/have faith on something written centuries ago that also often doesn't make sense?

  @Vanderhoven7

  Thanks for the poem, I love poetry :)

  Works prove the faith is genuine to man, not god. Right. Therefore works are not necessary. Ultimately faith at least to me, is having strong belief in something. What you say is that if one believes the works will naturally happen because of his beliefs.

  I have faith/believe in medicine, but doesn't mean I've become a doctor though. I have faith/believe that eating raw food is actually better for the human body, but I eat cooked food. The fact I don't become or strictly do something doesn't weaken my belief. Nor I feel that because I believe in something I have to get up and do works about it to show other men what I believe.

  Based on your reasoning is like saying if one believes something...the works are almost a natural result. But how can we measure someone's faith on something and say his/her faith is stronger than someone else's just because one person do works and the other don't?

  It's impossible. And Jesus himself said if I recall well, when the old widow gave her 2 worthless coins but that to her they were all she had, he said she gave more than everyone else. So to say: we as men cannot and should never judge another human beliefs, because it may not look like it someone doesn't do anything but they have more faith/believe than someone who does a lot.

  Which brings me to the next point like you said works are to prove only to men that we have faith. As a born-in JW, I was very active up until my 19 year when I left my home country. If someone knew me then they would think I was one faithful young sister. My "works" were spot on. A lot and I mean a lot of people were gobsmacked when I left the organization. Turns out I never believed in it. So where does put my works of faith?

  They were exactly works done to prove things to men. So works: 10 Faith/believe in what I was doing? Zero.

  Since I left. Works ...at least according to the bible (or JW) are zero. Faith: 10.

  So which one is better? Neither? Does it matter? Personally I don't think it does because what I believe now isn't anything to do with bible, traditional god, being sinners etc.