Which came first?

by Terry 6 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Did you know that all of the philosophy, religion and science the world has ever produced is really a conflict between

    2 different basic premises?

    As a result of accepting one OR the other, every person who has ever lived has embraced one of two opposites as a way of life!

    How you see truth, man, the universe, purpose, destiny--depends on which side of the two you accept and believe.

    _______________________________________________________________

    What are the two premises and what do they mean for your life?

    First comes first

    So, which came first--was it things or thought? Material universe or a mind floating in nothing?

    Existence or Consciousness--which?

    The question of "Which Came First" is the primary question.

    Philosophers call it PRIMACY (which came first?)

    ________________________________________________________

    If you heard two philosophers arguing about this what would you hear?

    Primacy of Conscious

    Primacy of Existence

    ________________________________________________________

    It makes no difference what you call it. The argument is real and ongoing.

    For example, a religious person will insist that CONSCIOUSNESS (namely: God) was first.

    Further, since they accept Primacy of Consciousness, nothing real is possible to them without the act of God's conscious will.

    ________________________________________________________

    On the other hand, many scientists, physicists, humanists, agnostics, atheists, materialists take the other side of the question.

    Primcay of Existence means there was STUFF before there were any minds capable of thinking or consciousness.

    Evolution is rooted in Primacy of Existence=we humans are the result of interaction between stuff and other stuff withOUT conscious direction.

    ____________________________________________________

    Religious people, as a result of accepting the Primacy of Consciousness, perceive a mode of being superior to our existence on this earth. These people easily accept a mysterious spirit-world and call it “another dimension,” which consists of denying dimensions.You cannot measure spirit, you see.

    What identity are they able to give to their superior spirit realm?

    They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is.

    All the proponents of primacy of consciousness offer identifications consisting of negating:

    God is that which no human mind can know, they say—and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge—God is non-man, heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not acts of defining, but of wiping out material considerations.

    Spirit is, well, spiritual, you see.

    _________________________________________________________________

    Why not examine what you have to swallow as a person who accepts Primacy of Consciousness?

    For instance, God is infinite. Nothing can be infinite, according to the Law of Identity.

    Everything is what it is, and nothing else. It is limited in its qualities and in its quantity: it is this much, and no more. “Infinite” as applied to quantity does not mean “very large”: it means “larger than any specific quantity.” That means: no specific quantity—i.e., a quantity without identity. This is prohibited by the Law of Identity.

    Is God the creator of the universe? There can be no creation of something out of nothing. There is no nothing.

    Is God omnipotent? Can he do anything? Entities can act only in accordance with their natures; nothing can make them violate their natures . . .

    “God” as traditionally defined is a systematic contradiction of every valid metaphysical principle. The point is wider than just the Judeo-Christian concept of God. No argument will get you from this world to a supernatural world. No reason will lead you to a world contradicting this one. No method of inference will enable you to leap from existence to a “super-existence.”

    ______________________________________________

    On the other hand--if you accept Primacy of Existence you have to accept human consciousness is the result of stuff interacting with other stuff.

    The implication is man is no different (except consciously and rationally) from the stuff of which he is made.

    Man becomes a thing which transcends his own material parts.

    Such a man, though transcending mere stuff--still goes out of conscious existence and returns to the elements from which he is made.

    Death is the ultimate proof of man's material existence.

    DOES IT SURPRISE ANY OF US MAN MOSTLY CHOOSES TO DENY THIS ULTIMATE END?

  • Terry
    Terry

    Note to self: people on JW-net do NOT respond to topics involving Philosophy.

  • tec
    tec

    They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is.

    Maybe religious people do that... but I don't know people of faith who do that. I'll go through your list (and you asked for it, lol):

    God is that which no human mind can know, they say

    THEY, may say that... but Christ says the opposite. Know ME, know my Father as well.

    —and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge—God is non-man,

    God is spirit. God is love. God is energy. God is a consuming fire. (people think that is metaphorical... but it is not entirely so) God is a creator.

    heaven is non-earth,

    Heaven is the spiritual realm.

    soul is non-body,

    Leaving aside the definition of soul... spirit IS the man you are on the inside; everything that makes you, YOU.

    virtue is non-profit,

    I don't know what that means.

    A is non-A,

    Or that, lol.

    perception is non-sensory,

    Of course it is sensory... just maybe with that part of you that you do not believe exists... the spirit that you ARE, has its own senses.

    knowledge is non-reason.

    I don't know what that means either.

    Their definitions are not acts of defining, but of wiping out material considerations.

    Perhaps because there IS more than material considerations.

    For instance, God is infinite. Nothing can be infinite, according to the Law of Identity.

    How does the law of identity state that something cannot be infinite (assuming infinite means the same thing as eternal)

    Everything is what it is, and nothing else.

    An infinite (eternal) being is not a finite being.

    It is limited in its qualities and in its quantity: it is this much, and no more. “Infinite” as applied to quantity does not mean “very large”: it means “larger than any specific quantity.” That means: no specific quantity—i.e., a quantity without identity. This is prohibited by the Law of Identity.

    I think limitations is something that man applies.

    Is God the creator of the universe? There can be no creation of something out of nothing. There is no nothing.

    Out of HIMSELF. HIS energy.

    Not out of nothing.

    Is God omnipotent? Can he do anything? Entities can act only in accordance with their natures; nothing can make them violate their natures . . .

    Omnipotent is also man's word. God does not act outside of his nature. Either He cannot or is not willing to... either way, He does not.

    “God” as traditionally defined is a systematic contradiction of every valid metaphysical principle. The point is wider than just the Judeo-Christian concept of God. No argument will get you from this world to a supernatural world. No reason will lead you to a world contradicting this one. No method of inference will enable you to leap from existence to a “super-existence.”

    Really though, the contradictions only come from man's own lack of knowledge of one or the other, or both.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Note to self: people on JW-net do NOT respond to topics involving Philosophy.

    Not at all true. Many threads are "What is your philosophy?" on a matter. They may be framed differently so that the thread doesn't shout "Philosophy." It may be Minimus saying "Whaddaya think?"

    Maybe it is your premise that turned people off from responding.

    Personally, I think philosophy is important to any side of this issue, and I don't think everything in a person's view on these issues boils down to "Which came first?" (BTW, in the question on the chicken or the egg, it was the rooster.)

    I may say that a purposeless universe came to be from nothing, but then I may find it very important that each person creates a purpose in the purposeless universe.

  • new hope and happiness
    new hope and happiness

    It seems to me deeper thinking requires deeper thinking...

  • Terry
    Terry

    .

    oh heck, I just don't have what it takes today to go into all this. My computer keeps stalling and my transaxle on my car

    is about gone. So, I'm preoccupied with too much "reality":)

  • tec
    tec

    ; )

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit