By the waters of Babylon

by ozziepost 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    I think it was Hitler who believed that if you repeat something often enough, in time people will believe it. I was reminded of this whilst listening to a talk at last week’s Service Meeting in our local congregation given by a middle-aged ministerial servant. This brother, like so many others, has grown up “in the truth” and his world view is largely formed by what he has heard at KH meetings and from the publications over the years. This brother spoke of the decline of Christendom and its rapid loss of numbers, and this an evidence of Jehovah's disfavour. :(

    I have heard that many times over the past half-century and read it in the publications, too. Where does this teaching come from? On what is it based?

    In commenting on Revelation 17:15 “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.” The Revelation…Climax book states on page 238, paragraph 10 :

    “Babylon the Great also looks to ‘many waters’ to protect and enrich her. These symbolic waters are “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues”, that is, all the thousands of millions of humans over whom she has dominated and from whom she has drawn material support. BUT THESE WATERS ARE ALSO DRYING UP, OR WITHDRAWING SUPPORT.” (Emphasis added).

    So the Watchtower teaching is that Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, fell in 1919. It is now going through its “death throes”, and so we are led to believe that there is universal withdrawing of support for the churches of Christendom.

    Consider how this theme is repeated in a selection of publications (see bottom of post).

    The point is, Is it true? Are the waters of Babylon drying up?

    There can be no doubt that there are sociological changes taking place throughout the world. Some small churches have closed. There is no shortage of examples in the regular section “Watching the World” in the Awake! magazine. Of course, the New World Society is not exempt from this. Congregations do close from time to time. It’s usually disguised in the name of progress or “simplification” but it does happen. Some rural churches in Australia are in decline; so are some rural congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The churches still maintain a greater presence in rural Australia than do Jehovah’s Witnesses. If in doubt, please check the number of Kingdom Halls and where they are located.

    But the situation is not all decline, and this is where the brothers are being misled. Consider the following newspaper report from Sydney, Australia:

    “(Heading) More men choosing priesthood
    At a time when many churches in the West face a shortage of new vocations to the priesthood, the Church of England (Anglican) is enjoying an increase. According to official figures from the church, ordinations of both deacons and priests this year are the highest since the 1980s. Dioceses reported that 396 people were to be ordained deacons this year, a 9 per cent increase on the previous year which, in turn, was higher than 1997……...The average age of people joining the ministry is the mid-30s…...Surge in the Church of England.” (The Sunday Telegraph, Sydney - August 1, 1999)

    What do our own eyes tell us? As we drive to our Kingdom Hall meetings with 70% attending, we pass churches that are still operating, people are attending, and some seem to have people simply streaming to them. In Sydney, Australia there is a church called Hillsong Church. 16 years ago it had a congregation of 45 persons. Today, it numbers in the thousands. It has one Saturday service, and 4 services on Sunday. The gospel is preached, lives are won for Christ, morality is taught, and all of them are encouraged to belong to Cell Groups so that they can be taught God’s Word and nurtured. They have upbeat music from a band in their services and the young people flock there. I hasten to add that I am not an apologist for Hillsong, but it is one example of how the publications are proved to be lying.

    If Babylon the Great is who the Society say it is, and if it did fall in 1919,it sure is taking a long time to stop breathing!

    It would seem that from the days of Rutherford (it was another aussie who coined the term Joe Ratherflawed, not I, but I wish I had!!) successive generations of witnesses have simply repeated what their forebears said. “Joe said the churches have had their day, so I must say it” ( or write it in the case of the Writing Dept.) This does not make it true.

    Further, it seems somewhat hypocritical, rather like the pot calling the kettle black, because what is the situation amongst JWs? The past two years have shown marked decline in the western world. And it seems to be continuing. The February 2001 issue of “Kingdom Ministry” for Australia reports 59,233 publishers with 193 baptised for the month of November 2000. This is 17 publishers DOWN on last year and 1,333 DOWN on 1998. This means that with all the increase (i.e. baptisms) of 1,590 last year and 1,822 the year before that, the number of publishers in Australia continues to decline.

    How can this be explained? Well, it can’t be the waters of Babylon, so can it be the waters of Jerusalem that are drying up? ! 8>

    Ozzie ( who is carefully checking to see whether it is true)

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Selection of quotations from Watchtower Society publications on Revelation 17:15

    “The “many waters” of Revelation 17:1, 15—“peoples and crowds and nations and tongues” of this godless world—have been withdrawing their support from religion, so that financial support for religion has been drying up also. (Compare Revelation 16:12.) But the present economic plight of the churches is as nothing in comparison with the anguish they will feel when the Sovereign Lord Jehovah executes judgment” -Watchtower 1984 March 1st p17

    **************
    “ In recent times the “waters,” or “peoples,” that formerly supported her religion have been falling away. Support for religion has been drying up, with many persons turning to the teachings of Darwin, Marx, Lenin and Mao. Also, as prophesied concerning the “last days,” people have become “lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God.”—2 Timothy 3:1, 4. Contributing to the falling away of the “waters” has been the action of righteously inclined persons who have obeyed heaven’s call with regard to “Babylon the Great”: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.” (Revelation 18:4)” - Kingdom Come (book)-1981) pages164-5 para 17

    ***************
    “Modern Babylon also “sits on many waters,” says Revelation 17:1. What are these waters? God’s Word answers: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.” (Rev. 17:15) Note that the overthrow of ancient Babylon was immediately preceded by the dropping of the literal waters of the Euphrates River. Is there a similar dropping of the symbolic waters (humans) from underneath modern Babylon? Yes, there is, and it is taking place right before our very eyes!—Rev. 16:1, 12.

    HOW THE “MANY WATERS” ARE DROPPING
    In what way are the symbolic “many waters” under modern Babylon dropping, diminishing? In that millions of persons, including tens of thousands of religious clergy and workers, have abandoned the support that they used to give their religions, seriously weakening them. This is particularly true in Christendom, which has greater guilt since she claims to serve both God and Christ. While at times there is mention of “revival” in a few religions, particularly the less orthodox ones, in most cases this is only superficial. With few exceptions, the overall trend is unmistakable and can be seen by comments in the world press, such as the following:……..“The shortage of priests and nuns in the West is near the peril point in nation after nation.”—“Time,” August 21, 1978…… “In country after country the situation with this world’s religions is as The Age of Melbourne, Australia, says—that all denominations “are suffering a fall in believers.” Since the “fall in believers,” the fall of the “many waters” upon which the harlot sits, is so obviously taking place now, can the forces of destruction be far behind? No.”

    “The diminishing support for the “great harlot” fits the description of Bible prophecy regarding these “last days” when it says that people would be “lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power.” The same prophecy then counsels: “From these turn away.” (2 Tim. 3:4, 5) Similarly, the striking declaration addressed to righteously inclined persons still in modern “Babylon the Great” is: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.”—Rev. 18:4.” – Watchtower 1980 October 15th, pages 20-3

  • logical
    logical

    I did a post on Babylon the Great in the week, showing the errors of this teaching

    > http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=2624&site=3

    >>> http://www.geocities.com/logical_7/index.html

  • Prisca
    Prisca

    So if they believe the falling number of church membership indicates Jah's displeasure of Christendom's religions, don't they wonder what that says about the huge numbers of Witnesses leaving?

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    I'm sure that most of us here are well aware of how things can be 'bent' to fit the circumstance. If people are flocking to the KH's then it's a sign that the remainder of 'honest hearted' ones (not sheep anymore) are being gathered in before the GT begins. If they start flocking to the 'other' churches, it's a sign that the 'love of the greater number is cooling off' and, again, a sign that the end is close. If the numbers start slowing down for the JW's then it's a sign that the gathering work is coming to an end...and the end is near. If the numbers for 'Babylon' start declining, then it's a sign that she is dying and, of course, it means....(fill in the blank).
    If there are any areas that I missed or if circumstances change any time soon I will be happy to show how this means that...we are living at the time of the end.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Seems that the problem of falling JW numbers and the drying up of the waters in Babylon the Great is not lost on the Borg, so we have not seen a printed comment on this in recent times. Of course, the teaching is still, "on the statute books" ,as it were, but not discussed. The attention span of the average JW is not very long. As one Bethel elder recently said to me: "We're just kept so busy preparing talks as Bethel speakers, our congregation and Bethel duties, that we don't have time to think and meditate".

    Ozzie (of the honesty in print class)

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Ozzie, a question for you. Do you think the GB really knows (realizes) what they are doing? Or do you think perhaps they are themselves victims of their own pseudo-enlightment?

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Raymond Franz makes the point in one of his books that even the G.B. are "victims of victims". Having seen a little of how the inner sanctums work, I can well understand what he meant. I think that they are just as much deluded by this monster (the organisation) that has been established as any other witnesses. To me it resembles the faceless bureaucracy of a totalitarian (especially communist dictatorship) state. So any tiny infringement of the norm and even a GB member can be made to face a secret committee. Just look at what happened to Brother Ray Franz, as a case in point. I cannot see that it is a matter of "them" as if they consciously set out to manipulate or rule over people as in a mafia style. Of course, there's no disputing the total control that the org has over people's lives. But the GB also are forced to comply with the same control. I guess it's just a self-perpetuating thing. Brother Franz makes the point that he sees little hope of genuine reform; I agree with that.

    Ozzie (who is glad that the truth will set you free)

  • TR
    TR

    Ozzie, this is interesting:

    I think that they are just as much deluded by this monster (the organisation) that has been established as any other witnesses.

    No JW wants to see their religion or "truth" disintegrate. Even at the highest level they seem to be willing to perpetuate the "doublethink" mentality. Unless of course one is "stumbled" by a WTS doctrine or event that shakes their confidence in what they were taught. Many JW's of late have been "stumbled" by the WTS's teachings and changed doctrines

    TR

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Ozzie, I just had to check the source of your quote. This is what I found. I think it is fairly accurate.

    Germanys Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbel stated more than half a century ago: Repeat a lie often enough and the people will believe it.

    This week's book study included the original story of the dropping waters of the Euphrates. Come to think of it, there was no reference to modern-day Babylon's waters evaporating, except that she is supposed to be ready for a fall any day now.

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