by metatron 9 Replies latest jw friends
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-consciousness-universal
I was stunned to see this article come from SciAm. I see it as largely consistent with my belief in pantheism.
I understand that some might quibble with my describing it as an alternative to atheism or theism, in regard to technical definitions of those terms but , at least, I see it as an alternative to what sort of thought is often associated with those words.
Interesting stuff
metatron
It's interesting Metatron but it's about panpsychism isn't it? The idea that everything has a mind. Surely he's saying that there are more similarities between us and other animals in that they feel emotions, pain etc and that animals should not be so easily dismissed as being different to us. If our minds as animals have evolved then they have minds and emotions to some extent.
Here is the paragraph where he lost credibility for me. It is an argument from personal incredulity ...
Yet the mental is too radically different for it to arise gradually from the physical. This emergence of subjective feelings from physical stuff appears inconceivable and is at odds with a basic precept of physical thinking, the Ur-conservation law—ex nihilo nihil fit. So if there is nothing there in the first place, adding a little bit more won't make something. If a small brain won't be able to feel pain, why should a large brain be able to feel the god-awfulness of a throbbing toothache? Why should adding some neurons give rise to this ineffable feeling? The phenomenal hails from a kingdom other than the physical and is subject to different laws. I see no way for the divide between unconscious and conscious states to be bridged by bigger brains or more complex neurons.
Of course as a neuroscientist he knows that nobody claims that consciousness emerges from adding neurons but from the organisation of the brain.
Then he made me regret staying with him to the end...
"Whether or not the Internet today feels like something to itself is completely speculative. Still, it is certainly conceivable."
Really? I'm so sorry if I have hurt the internet's feelings.
Why specifically Cofty? Are the underlined sections what you are referring to? I see what you mean about the conscious internet, you don't need to enlarge on that.
I just thought he was referring to the fact that it is difficult to grasp that all human emotions come from 1.5 kg of grey matter and that everything that we are seems to be more than that. Isn't he just saying it is difficult to take the leap from brain to mind, although mind is itself is a philosophical construct?
Whenever someone makes an analogy to human organs, it's a relatively easy matter to think - kidney:filter, heart:pump and so on - except for the brain. In comedies ( "Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Sex") it's a guy at a control panel. In other words, there is no real analogy for it, it just sort of redundantly loops back to itself.
I think the point he's making refers to emergence. At what point do we have enough neurons for specific emotions or consciousness itself? Can machines or networks be part of this?
As atheists and theists argue, no one seems to ask "forget creation, what sustains the universe and its laws, from moment to moment?" That's where I see a oneness behind things - not as a personal God but a sort of grand system.
metatron
We don't know of any disembodied non-material minds. All of our experience and observations are of mental processes associated with mater.
I can't believe that people still don't get the difference between descriptive laws and prescriptive laws.
Descriptive laws are IF-THEN statements tied to process. Think of a buzzer. If the switch is ON it is OFF. If the switch is OFF it's ON. BZZZZZZZZZ.
Prescriptive laws are rules society enforces. IF A PERSON ACTS a certain way SOCIETY wil RE-ACT a certain way.
I feel like the massive lack of technological knowledge among the general population is what often leads to this kind of viewpoint -- the idea that consciousness is something special or unique. It's awe-from-ignorance instead of awe-from-knowledge. If someone has studied how computers work, whether focusing on hardware or software, they won't find anything puzzling about the way our brains work, or what "runs" the universe.
Our technology imitates and complements the brain and other life processes that developed naturally. The "mind" is simply the product of automatic reactions designed to comprehend the environment for purposes of survival. It's no different from the knee-jerk reflex, except there's many miniature reflexes happening in parallel.
I encourage everyone to get a book on how to program computers. Learn to program and write a fractal program or a simulation with emergent complexity. Or if you're the hands-on type, get a book on robotics and build a robot with a kit. Everything in the universe will start making more sense when you do, and, if anything, your sense of wonder will increase.
There is an alternative. Suppose Satan is the one that is in the right, and joke-hova or allah simply wish to enslave the whole human race? And Jesus is simply a tool to get people to donate their psychic energy to that cause. Joke-hova is a tyrant that was, and is still, trying to get the human race into damnation and slavery. Then along comes Satan and offers freedom. Mankind, at least the Gentiles not joke-hova's "chosen ones", chooses Satan's offer of freedom. Joke-hova, being a sore loser, cannot stand to see us headed toward freedom. So that thing interferes, and the whole plan to create jesus is nothing more than a way to trick us into surrendering our psychic power into being enslaved. The whole story reveals joke-hova's nature of wanting to enslave us all. Tyrant David, who never met a Gentile it did not want dead, is a window on how joke-hova views us. As scum. And the lie of loving us--just to get us to take the bait.
I suggest reading the Black Sun web site for much more details. Warning--this will challenge everything you know about Christi-SCAM-ity, unless you already hate it. It will offend those who are deep into Christi-SCAM-ity, Judaism, or Islam. But, those with a stomach that can take the possibility of your whole belief system turned upside down should read it. It will reveal where these religions came from and what their intentions are.
Try to search for "Deism" on wikipedia
